Milad Mohebali
And I sometimes think part of my angst about being in education was that I felt like it was too much like engineering, maybe it was that focus on trying to narrow down the questions to try to solve it. And I somehow felt like I wanted to say with the complexity of the situation, and to try to understand it, and part of my intervene to the multicultural initiatives research team, was that the the team was organized in a way that would actually allow people to bring their complexities into the conversation, which I think it’s another way of thinking about the theory.

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today we’re talking about the new book, The Theory of Being: Practices for Transforming Self and Communities Across Difference. I’m joined today by five, four editors and a contributing author who are joining us today. Thanks to each of you for being here today. I’m so excited about this book this contribution and to be able to learn from you. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode, or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This episode is brought to you by Stylus, which also published the book, visit styluspub.com, and use promo code SANOW for 30% off and free shipping. This episode is also sponsored by Vector Solutions formerly EverFi the trusted partner for more than 2000 colleges and universities. Vector Solutions is the standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his I’m a speaker, consultant, and coach and you can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m recording this for Minneapolis, Minnesota, my home, which is also at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of both the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to the conversation. Thank you all for being here. I’m so appreciative. Let’s begin with some introductions learning a little bit about each of you. And let’s begin with you Duhita.

Duhita Mahatmya
Well, Keith, thanks again for having us. And for all the listeners out there who will be listening in or watching this on YouTube. My name is Duhita Mahatmya, and I’m an associate research scientist in the grants and Research Services Center in the College of Ed at the University of Iowa. So what that really means is that I get to sit with faculty, staff, and students and dream up projects around education and kind of design them and think about how we’re actually going to do it. And that’s actually what brought me to Sherry’s multicultural initiatives team, which I joined about six years ago, where we were thinking about how do you measure defenses? So that was kind of what we were talking about at the time, and how it evolved to how do we study this phenomena of being in difficult dialogues. And that is what led us to the book. So that’s me, and I’m excited to speak more about our work together in this episode.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Thank you, Charles, tell us a little bit more about you.

Charles Martin Stanley II
Well, everyone, my name is Charles Martin Stanley, the second I am the Director of Diversity, Equity and inclusivity at Mount Mercy University in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. I have been a member of this team since the fall of 2016, when I first started my PhD program at the University of Iowa. And for me, in my role I do a lot with strategic planning around DEI having difficult conversations around diversity, equity, and inclusivity. And really just being able to reflect on those conversations and see how we grow. And so look forward to talking with you all more about the theory of being.

Keith Edwards
awesome. Thank you for being here. Gordon, tell us a little bit about you.

Gordon Louie
Hi, thanks, Keith. And hey, everyone. My name is Gordon Louie, and I am currently a PhD candidate at the University of Iowa. And I also work full time I am in a role outside of Student Affairs. I was in student affairs for about 10 years or so. And I recently at the start of this year made a transition. So I’m the program manager at a startup called Textio. And I am calling today from Seattle, Washington, where I live now. And in my role I help examine AI strategy for the company and I create programs that build awareness, knowledge and skills for my fellow colleagues. So great, so great to join you.

Keith Edwards
Thank you and Milad. Go ahead and tell us a little bit more about you.

Milad Mohebali
Thank you, and hi to all the listeners. I’m Milad Mohebali. I’m a postdoctoral scholar at the College of Education at the University of Iowa. I primarily do research with the multicultural initiatives research team, which is led by Dr. Ward and I have been part of that member for at least five years now from starting my PhD program, and also worked primarily with the anti racism collaborative at the College of Education, which is based on some of the principles of the theory of being. And I do a lot of work around how evaluated process oriented approach to the DEI and how to institutionalize that at the College of Education.

Keith Edwards
And Sherry Watt this is all your fault if folks have implicated yours. So tell us about you. and sort of your role in all of this?

Sherry K. Watt
Yeah, well, first, thanks so much, Keith, for having us. And I’m just delighted always to be in community and in team conversation with folks that I’ve thought with over years and time. So I’m really glad to be here today and delighted for the conversation. And I am Sherry Watt. I’m a professor at the University of Iowa in the higher education and student affairs program. I have been with the university since 2000. And which I still get shocked over every time I say that. Also, I would say most of the teams and the research that informs the theory of being arises out of some early research on how to be in difficult dialogues with folks in ways that are productive and starting with Privileged Identity Exploration model. But this work builds on that. So really excited to be here. And to think more with these folks and with the audience on this idea.

Keith Edwards
Well, great, it was wonderful to read the book for folks who are interested, I would really encourage it because it’s really relevant. I mean, uses examples from faculty life and from student affairs practice and from communication dialogues across difference, but also navigating conversations with family members and nieces, and so much more. So, Sherry this theory emerged from some of your research and practice and thinking and your own being. I’d love for you to tell us a little bit about the why the purpose of this and the what, what is the theory of being?

Sherry K. Watt
Yeah so that’s kind of, I think, a great question and kind of sometimes even hard for us to describe. But I’d say the origins of this really began with my experience in the classroom and my experience as a faculty of color as a black woman working in education, and in the different ways that in especially someone who was studying how to be in difficult dialogues with others about, particularly racism, which was primary in my existence and experience, not that it didn’t include other intersectional identities, but racism, and how to have that conversation in ways that, you know, was going to be productive. So also, I think partnering with that is how did I how can I survive this academic setting and his academic environment in a way that keeps me whole and still human. And so this theory comes out of that. It comes from a intersection of those conversations that we’ve had over the years, and also my experience with the Center for courage and renewal. Yeah, so the Center for courage and renewal is a nonprofit organization that began with Parker Palmer, Marcy Jackson, Rick Jackson and others, Terry Chatzi, others that have been really active in developing but based on Parker Palmer’s work on the courage to teach, but also hidden wholeness, other works, but essentially a way of going about how to be in conversation, what drew me to the work originally was the tagline that said, bringing who you are, to what you do. So for some reason, I felt very disconnected from who I was, and how I’m showing up in academia, and craved some space that helped me to resolve those pieces of myself. And part of the reason I feel like that was so important to me is, you know, background history, just growing up as an Army kid. Every time I moved to a different place, I needed to evolve into a different person, but I didn’t want to lose the thread of who I was. So it was constantly for me, and you know, studying racial identity or studying privilege, all of those have been about how do you bring together yourself so that you are not crazy? You know, how do you victory yourself in a way that grounds you into who you are, and you don’t lose touch with that. So what evolved over time is us trying to think about, well, we started with content, you know, really thinking that if we teach if we identify Privileged Identity reactions, then those we can talk to people about that. And then, over time, sort of realize that, you know, that being able to label or diagnose wasn’t really productive for how to have a conversation. And we we started to ask ourselves questions that were about process. So the theory of being is a process oriented approach it teaches which is informed by the frameworks, touchstones in other things that were inspired from the center for courage and renewal in the work around that. Which was, which really is about how to be with yourself and others in community in a way that you are not losing yourself, I guess it’s probably, you know, how do you stay in touch with yourself and still be in community with others and traverse difference? The difference in what we do, as opposed to the Center for courage and renewal, the Center for courage and renewal was really focused on how do you have that as a personal journey? Our work? Was it needed to, for our sake, extend to how do you do that in community with others not being not being, you know, alone together? But how are you actually, together with people in getting things done in a productive way that guide you towards some kind of more inclusive space?

Keith Edwards
You’re using the word productive in these conversations, I also think about being effective. And I think there’s some some things about that maybe we’ll get to a little bit later about how people show up to be right. Which I’m really good at. But how do people show up to be productive or to be effective in these conversations, holding their their sense of self, but also being willing to be changed by the people they’re in community with, there’s a lot of both. And and there’s a lot of both, and throughout the whole book, and you’re pulling from you mentioned, Parker Palmer, but also you really give a lot of credit to Paula Frary, to Bell Hooks, and others. And you mentioned the privilege, identity exploration, which is really about the defensive, the different kinds of defensiveness that shows up. And you talk at the very beginning about, and I think you just alluded to it, but could you expand a little bit about going from sort of naming and seeing these defenses, as seeing them as necessary for the process?

Sherry K. Watt
Yeah. So we, we have found that the privileged identity exploration is an entry point for folks that feels like manageable, like if I’m going to have a different difficult conversation, and I can recognize that I have defensive reactions to, you know, being exposed to something that I disagree with, and or just learning about. And if I can recognize that others, which is where the theory of being extends, you know, it’s not only do I need to be aware of what comes up for me, but how can I be in community or in relationship with other people, that I also recognize that they are experiencing a defensive reaction? And how can I be? How can I build or the recognition of that helps to build empathy? So you’re you you have some empathy for others, because you have had that kind of spinning also. So the way we think about it in the context of the theory now is, how can I be with myself? How can I be with others? And how can I be in community? You know, when I’m feeling disoriented, you know, when I am losing my way I am angry or frustrated, or, you know, how do I manage that, so that I can still have the stamina to stay in the conversation, even when it gets difficult. And that’s the how part is where we feel like we we needed to situate the work? How do we how do we move from just trying to focus on the outcome? And how do we have a process that allows us to reach an inclusive outcome? So what is the how, how do we actually most people paused, and we’re kind of like, well, how do we actually have that you want me to take this risk? But how do I do that? And that’s where we think the theory sits it says, here are some practices that help you to be in those conversations and build that stamina?

Keith Edwards
Well, I don’t hear this from folks all the time, I really want to do this, I really want to be able to do this. Just tell me what to do. Right, give me give me the recipe. So So give us a little bit of the structure of the theory of being, kind of the fundamentals, and then we’ll turn it to Milad to clarify and complicate as we go.

Sherry K. Watt
Yeah, sure. So the theory has three tiers essentially. And we added recently, one of our team members, Mavis Jesse talk shared with a partner that we were working with applying the theory, the framework in a way that I thought was really helpful. She she talked about or we talk about personal relational and community level. And she added the kind of nuance that backs that alright, explanation of it, that it’s personal self work, relational self work, and community self work, and we’ve been calling them practices essentially, but the focus on self care work we think is really important this centers on your exploration while you are with yourself and with others, and also within a community. And so these practices are, are directly in those different layers. And we believe that, that that way of being with yourself in community with others, aligning what you think, feel and do, are are part of practices that we have to strengthen in order for us to sit in the really difficult conversations. That’s the layers of the theory.

Keith Edwards
Well, Sherry referred to you as the theoretical wizard or something like that, or know what may be allowed. But go ahead. What would you add here? I know you’ve been listening intently. And what would you add to this and strengthen for our folks who are listening and trying to understand this?

Milad Mohebali
Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll start with some of the personal take and into the theory. And that’s how we decided we are organizing the boot, the chapters are reading with a personal or we asked every chapter offer to actually grounded in a personal story, which I remember my first draft actually changed so much once I started to enter in for my own story, because it was really differently situating towards that. My background is in engineering, and I came to the United States, I’m from Iran, and I started studying education. And I sometimes think part of my angst about being in education was that I felt like it was too much like engineering, maybe it was that focus on trying to narrow down the questions to try to solve it. And I somehow felt like I wanted to say with the complexity of the situation, and to try to understand it, and part of my intervene to the multicultural initiatives research team, was that the the team was organized in a way that would actually allow people to bring their complexities into the conversation, which I think it’s another way of thinking about the theory, it’s a way of containing the complexity of people complexity of thinking together. And for me complexity of thinking about fixing a system from within a system, when the fix is always situated in the system, and is always affected by it, it’s a way for us to hold us always accountable to the fact that racism is going to, you know, some has slipped back in, there is no way that I can study it enough that they can actually not be reproducing racism anymore. So I feel like it was, you know, the theory really alone, that kind of, you know, helped us have that container of, let’s try to think of a way that we can enter into. So that is a process oriented approach, that we can actually be together in a healthy way. And I know there is some abelist language around that. But it’s a good metaphor, the thing and I was saying it this morning, actually in another conversation, how can we think of it not as a disease that we want to remove? But how can we think of education for creating health? How can we create a different type of relationships, that we don’t have to be oppositional that we don’t have to reproduce the same patriarchal system in Bell Hooks, and the book is dedicated to Bell Hooks. And we all really love to be, she thinks the way she writes. And you know, and I know that if you mentioned the being right and revealing to be right or wanting to your right is specifically when we talk about, you know, racism and anti racism. And I remember one of the things that I read the first time it was reading Bell Hooks, and it was all about love. And she was saying how growing up, she felt so complicated, and like people asking her to say the, you know, the truth. But then she said the truth, she would get discipline for that. And I had so much of like, oh, gosh, I totally can, you know, relate to that in the ways of how society is organized, how education is organized. And then think of how can we bring our imperfect selves, knowing that it is imperfect, we are shaped in this systems, there’s still been a dialogue intentionally around some of these issues are complex, and be able to hold each other’s complexity in their conversation and not further dehumanize each other. So that’s another way of, for me thinking about the theory to hold it’s complexity, but at the same time thinking that the theory is really a set of practices and skills. It gives us a way of doing things but in no way it is prescriptive. People need to personalize it. People need to learn the skills and practice it and think, how can they apply to their work? But in no way, you know, we think of theory as a way of like, here’s a, b and c that need to and things get done. It’s more of to A to B and C You will see and you need to think of how you can use in your own sitting in the ways that align with who you are, to actually be humanizing conversations.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I really love you bringing that in, because I think, you know, I flippantly use the recipe, this is not really a cookbook that gives you the recipe, this is more like, here’s some cooking principles. And now you could make whatever you want, right? And be able to apply this in so many different different settings. And you’re pointing me to what I think about is we need this anti oppression analysis, this critical lens to see the racism to see the ableism that’s going on. But that’s not the end goal. The goal is then what are we going to create? What is liberation look like? What is communities of change? And I think a lot of people are really resonating with wanting to both and that part, looking to things like restorative practices to not just respond to injustice, but like, how do we create communities that are more equitable. And this is another really great way of thinking through that before, we’re going to have Charles and Duhita. And Gordon come in here in a little bit about the how, but before we jump to that, to the three of you want to add anything to the why, or the what? They’re all looking

Duhita Mahatmya
Okay, I think if for me, if there’s a through line to what Sherry is saying, and what Milad was describing, and one of the, I think assumptions of the theory is that, on the surface, it seems like, you know, easy like, oh, just do the self work and as reflection, but as we have learned in both writing the theory of researching it and practicing it is that it is very countercultural, and that’s a word that we speak about in the book and how we situate this and that. Going back to what Sherry was saying, of feeling disconnected in academia, I think that is what we are trying to address in movement towards liberation, Keith, as you were mentioning, and but just that word countercultural. I wanted to introduce her kind of bring into this space, because that’s something that we talk about, in the what and the why of the theory.

Sherry K. Watt
Can I just add to that, that’s, I think that’s, you know, informed by the Center for courage and renewables practices. The Touchstone some of the things that is part of what informed by them the other layer, I would add to what Duhita was saying is that, or that I think I have here and all of what we’re saying so far, is that we are in a cultural, we’re in a society that the cultural name or the practice is doing, let’s focus on doing fixing, saving, advising. And this work is about being not that in the exclusion of doing, but it is about the being as a thing of itself, that will inform them, and hopefully, more thoughtfully inform you’re doing. So there there is, it’s the, the idea that it’s being is really important. And we don’t often know how to be we mostly know because of the way we’re socialized in this society is to do that usually means stumbling over people and losing nuance.

Keith Edwards
Right, to meet the deadline to get the task done to complete the project to finish the thing that I work with a lot of my coaching clients, you know, if you want to do make a list, make a task, right? That’s great. But if you want to be that’s now in the realm of metaphor, you want to be like, and I’m curious. It seems like we’re pointing toward a little bit of spiritual practice here. And informed by that not not religious, but really the you’re talking about inner work, relational inner work, community, community inner work, it really feels like this is calling us to deepen our reflection, deepen our insight, in many ways.

Duhita Mahatmya
And I think that’s virtual peace. I just want to give a shout out to Nyan Jiang who’s one of our MCI team members who that was her dissertation research and what her research is, is looking at the theory of being in spirituality, so I just wanted to acknowledge her presence in this space or that that’s what came to me when when you spoke about that Keith?

Gordon Louie
Yeah, and I was gonna go off of Sherry’s earlier point there of I think, for me, what this does is it’s kind of an interrupter. Because, again, you know, acknowledging that both being and doing are important that’s like you have to do you know, you can’t not do that. But with that acknowledgement. What this theory adds is when you’re in that mode, and knowing that the culture is such that it promotes that particular side, every time we’ve talked about being you know, with groups, it’s always been like, Yes, everyone acknowledges this. It is necessary. I think this is a positive part of what we ought to be. But it’s always kind of been nice to have, you know, and the necessary parts of it have always been on the doing side. So knowing that I think what the theory adds is, when you’re in that mode, you’re accumulating a lot of assumptions, because to do the things you have to simplify, you have to essentialize, yes, you have to essentialize your tasks, how you go about doing it. And I think what it does is it helps reveal some of these assumptions that then can invite further discussion based on that. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
great. Well, the book is full of so many examples of how the theory of being can be put into practice, as I mentioned, from family conversations to conflicts with students and other faculty members who would imagine. Well, let’s turn to some of you to talk a little bit about the how, right, we talked about the why, and the what now a little bit about the how we can put this into use. Charles, you mentioned doing DEI and strategic planning sort of these many conversations, how, how are you putting to use the theory of being in your work?

Charles Martin Stanley II
Yes, so I serve as the Director of Diversity, Equity and inclusivity, at my institution, and I see it as focusing on three particular areas. So one, having a DEI Strategic Action Plan that goes hand in hand with our strategic plan. DEI programming from trainings for faculty, staff, administrators, our students, our student leaders, and then lastly, serving as a support system for historically underrepresented student organizations on campus. And so finding unique ways to be able to have conversations around, you know, whether it be difficult dialogues, or engaging in just conversations of difference is, is what I do. 24/7 365. And so when I think about how I come to this work, it really started when when I started on this team, in the fall of 2016, and we would have conversations around, you know, was for me, it was responsibility and accountability. I just started my PhD program, learning a lot about systems of oppression, I’m learning, like reading, you know, Teaching to Transgress Paulo Frary, reading, reading all these different things that changed, you know, my way of thinking in positive ways. But then also, I would, I would always come back to the research team meetings and say, well, whose responsibility is it to do this work? Or who are we holding accountable. And in that space, something that I learned, which, which is really important, and I continue to use it in my own teaching pedagogy is, you know, instead of thinking about it as us versus them thinking about it as a we versus it, which is something we talked about it being that system of oppression. And so

Keith Edwards
That’s what you call third thing, right? Yeah, so

Charles Martin Stanley II
Absolutely. So being able to find something to focus on and having a conversation on that, rather than, you know, fighting among, you know, when we talk about that word, as well, but, you know, being in this conversation intently with one another. And so, in my particular chapter, I, I kind of pushed on that a little bit. So whose responsibility is it? Who how are we, you know, holding people accountable. And so I focus on silence. And I use Desmond Tutu’s quote, you know, if you’re neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor, and what that means, and I was challenged by Dr. Watt and others on the team where, you know, what if someone’s not being silent, but they’re not saying what you want them to say, or what you agree with, and so finding, you know, ways of, you know, having those conversations in difficult ways, and being able to, you know, see each other’s humanity in those conversations, whether you agree with them or not. And so that’s something that I’ve had the opportunity.

Keith Edwards
Again, because that’s affected. Yeah, they right, if we want to create the changes we want that’s necessary to not dehumanize people we disagree with, to create the change and make them open.

Charles Martin Stanley II
Absolutely. And so I, I’m in a unique role, where I’m an administrator on campus, but I also get to teach and so I’ve been able to find different ways for the theory of being to, to use that and an administrative role I had mentioned, you know, with my DEI programming, a lot of times, you know, I talk about, you know, what is diversity? What is equity? What is inclusivity? How do they come together? How do they differ, and something that I’ve been asked to do is talk a little bit more about how I come to this work, what is my own positionality as a African American man in this role look like? And so being able to share my own unique experiences, I’ve found has been helpful, because a lot of times, you know, if you, you know, read an article or book, it’s important, it’s influential, but it means something different and the facilitator is sharing, you know, a piece of them with you. And so I think that also helps me with theory of being because as we talked about, you know, how do you come to this work? How do you personally, my chapter focuses on that, you know, that personal aspect? And so how do you personally come into this? It is very important, I think it helps specifically from a training or facilitating perspective, to be able to reflect on how, how you come to this as well. And then teaching, I love teaching and and from a teaching perspective, I think that and having those conversations around difference, it’s important to be able to see various perspectives. And so I recently attended a diversity symposium where there was a conversation around, you know, if you’re looking from one side of the number, you see a six, whereas if you’re looking from the other side of the number, you see a nine and someone’s like, well, that’s a six, the other person’s like, Well, no, that’s a nine, and are you able to come to the other side? To see their perspective, whether you agree with it or not? Are you able to at least see their perspective and have a conversation? You know, and I think that’s also stems from that, you know, us versus them versus that we versus it being able to have those conversations. And I think that the theory of being helps you to be able to do that in a variety of ways, whether it’s third thinging, you know, humanizing others, or, you know, you know, focusing on you in that work, I think those are all, you know, key ways to do that we’ve talked about in our research, team meetings, you know, having a toolbox and, you know, having that, you know, that toolbox to be able to pull out these different skills to be able to have those conversations in a variety of ways. But, you know, that’s kind of how I’ve seen it work, both from an administrative position as well as, you know, in teaching, but I just think that, it’s not something that you do one time, and then you know, you stop, this is a lifelong process and a lifelong skills that you can use, whether it be in higher ed, and conversations with family members and conversations with friends, but still, you know, crucial and having those conversations, which is the only way in my opinion to move forward.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I love your mentioning the the us versus them moving to we being able to see people’s perspective, you disagree with humanizing. I was just scrolling through the news today. And it does seem quite counterculture to do those things. It seems quite, quite radical. Duhita how do you put this into practice?

Duhita Mahatmya
Yeah, and I’m drawing from a lot of how you were introducing your aspect to it of, you know, what’s the story? And I think, Charles, you were talking about this, what’s the story that brought me into this. And I came into this as like a quant researcher, knowing the stats. And so six years ago, when the team was developing the instrument for the privilege identity exploration model I was brought in to do to do the things to do the EFA CFA run the stats and all of that. And so, you know, it was like in that doing, we realize and or implement that there was something more so Sherry mentioned that that laid a framework for where we were with the theory of being and the perspective that I think I’ve been able to offer, or what brings me into the work is thinking about how do we then challenge the way we do research in academia to really invite a space to do process oriented research, that is more than just, you know, knowing the methodology, but how are we together as a team? How are we in relationship with the communities that we’re studying? How is it then, in the way that we write a research question that’s aligning with the theory? You know, do we actually take the time to think about that, in the midst of, you know, needing to publish and meeting certain criteria? No, I’m coming off of I was a former faculty member and jumped off that ship into the, to the work that I do now, interestingly enough, because of reading hidden wholeness, when I was on the tenure track, and realizing I didn’t want to be disconnected anymore. And it was in this team and doing research in this team that gave me the language of why I was feeling that tension in myself, as a researcher and somebody in academia, as well, as you know, how do we facilitate conversations with folks who might come from, you know, different trainings in different disciplines and have an idea of what research is or what valuable research is what good research is. And especially then when we think about, you know, oh, well, let’s look at comparisons between groups, you know, is that really, in service of the idea and in service of addressing oppression and systemic inequities? Right, is that really what we’re wanting to do or is that because this system tells us that that’s what we do to publish etc. etc. So I came into this work yet interesting enough kind of as the traditional quant researcher and then being with the team has transformed the way that I work and that I do research. Or perhaps it just revealed more of who I was the humanity that I want it to be in the work. And so that’s what brought me to the work, what keeps me in the work.

Keith Edwards
And it changed your way of being. Yeah, yes.

Duhita Mahatmya
Or maybe it’s like maybe that that way of being was always there, but was hidden in a way that then being in community with this team, and having the type of conversations we have around difficult things, you know, like racism, and oppression and exploitation, and all the different things that we’ve all experienced in different ways within the academy, that, that gave us the opportunity, or at least I can speak for gave me the opportunity to just kind of speak what it is that we’re experiencing, and this in hopes of transforming the systems that we’re in. So yeah, that’s kind of what brought me brought me in what and I think, from where I, where I probably practice, the theory of being just given the role in the position that I’m in, in the college.

Keith Edwards
I love this. I love that you’re talking about wholeness, which, which I’m tying more and more closely to healing, right, healing, bringing us closer to wholeness. And then tying it to Sherry talking about being a faculty member. And then realizing I’m a person too, and Milad talked about bringing our full complexity, there’s there’s a lot of, again, the healing the wholeness, and that kind of connection. Gordon, you’re, as you mentioned, you’re a higher ed person, and you stepped out rather recently. And as you’re, as you’re finishing this project, and the book coming out, you’re you’re in the tech industry, you’re outside of higher ed, you wrote the epilogue, bring us home.

Gordon Louie
Yeah, thanks, can you? And yeah, I always start with that piece to that I contributed by far like the shortest on all of the things that are kind of associated with it,

Keith Edwards
People always read the epilogue.

Gordon Louie
I hope so it is the shortest part. So it’s like, if you’re looking for something it’s like, that’s the abstract essentially, at the end. But yeah, I think it’s been an interesting journey. And like everyone, you know, I come from it a little bit differently, too, because I come my backgrounds in the humanities, I came into Student Affairs, this is the first higher ed like degree I’ll get is the terminal degree. But I came from the humanities. And so it was a different way of looking at things. So you know, I think there’s a deeper understanding of how rooted the structural systems are in our society. And that was kind of like the focus of a lot of the work that I’d done before. And the thing that really appealed to me, when I came to higher ed was the applied part of it, because as you might know, you know, in the humanities and other social sciences, a lot of it is in that theoretical frame. And part of what I like about the theory, but also I think, just higher ed in general is that it doesn’t stop there. It doesn’t stop at this part, and there is a wide applicability to it. And in the time that I’ve been in the program, and the time that I’ve been in the team, one of the questions that I’ve always had is, how applicable is this? You know, and I think that’s always been something in the back of my mind, even as we were talking about pie, as we were talking about, and working with organizations and doing workshops, and doing, you know, all these partnerships with different nonprofits and other educational institutions. And one of the classes that I got to take with Sherry to, you know, one of the driving questions is, I think when we think about DEI work, there’s always like, a past and a future, you know, like, there’s like where we want to get to, and there’s like that sense of immediacy. But there’s something that’s kind of missing in the process that was never addressed that it’s like, yes, we want to have equitable outcomes. And also the recognition, again, of that balance between yes, we want to be, but we also have to do, you don’t completely shut down the doing in favor of that. That’s not how this is going to work. And you’re not going to win anyone over trying to do that either. And so that’s really kind of been the driving curiosity behind how I approach the work. And so when the opportunity came to think about, oh, you know, having been on this team for so long, and having had these foundations, I really wanted to see how it would work outside. And honestly, it hasn’t been that different. That’s one of the things that I’ve learned the most. And, you know, I follow a lot of people on Alltech Twitter I went out there also due to there’s more and more people, I think everyday tweeting about this kind of stuff. But the culture is such that I think, when you’re inside, and when you’re on the inside, there’s a sense. I don’t necessarily, I don’t know if exceptionalism is the right word, but we think of ourselves like we’re in education, we’re in high risk, like, we’re kind of exempt from some things that’s on the outside. And it’s the same concerns, you know, what we’ve talked about, even through the course of this conversation, how does productivity, you know, kind of define the we know, these questions happen within the walls of academia to in the same way that we’re trying to wrestle with what that means, on the outside? You know, I just had a conversation with our inclusion Council just yesterday about this, it’s thinking about how we value time, how we value connectedness, how do we come to our sense of shared purpose? How are we able to express gratitude and joy? Given that productivity is what drives the metrics? You know, these are the same questions, you know, that we talked about insight. This is the same two questions that we talked about on the team. And we’ve wrestled with kind of before. And what I really enjoy about the theory and how I’ve applied it is I want to make this an invitational process, because I think, how DEI work, like I said, has been conceptualized as there’s like, a binary it is, to some degree that there’s an acknowledgment of ambiguity. But in practice, and tying research to practice, there’s something that’s lost, that tries to make it as simplistic and essentialist as possible.

Keith Edwards
Very binary way, right? You get it? Or don’t you’re well, you’re not, you’re Yeah, right.

Gordon Louie
And if someone doesn’t get it, like, you know, Charles has attested to a blood test to do if someone doesn’t say what you want to say, then then what you know, like, what are we going to do kind of in that place, and there’s less in that space, then there is on Yes, here’s the outcome that we want to reach, I think kind of in the end. And the other piece that the work really does for me, and this is not just in my professional life, this is for sure. In my personal life also, is it makes me think about how we structure expertise. And this is also a conversation that we have. I’ve had it in classes, I’ve had it with other grad students, I’ve had it with other professionals and student affairs. But I think the way that we’ve thought about expertise and how we think about expertise is troublesome. And I don’t know, and I know you’ve even attested to this in this conversation, Keith, of like, we’re showing up to be right, you know, like there’s a sense of expertise that excludes humility, that it’s like, what is that humility piece kind of look like? And the work really prompts you to think deeply about that. And that’s something I think about all the time, you know, we base we all base our decisions, and we all base our stuff, our thoughts on something and what that something is, the questions in the theory are really designed to kind of flush those out. And to be able to have a fuller conversations around that.

Keith Edwards
I wrote down one quote from the whole book. And it’s from the chapter on resistance from Steve Malvaso and Cara ProQuest Meskwaki. That’s crazy. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Here’s the quote, quote, performative. wokeness is the act of projecting a heightened sense of social consciousness, not for the purpose of educating somebody, but for the purpose of gaining a personally elevated status. Right, that’s where you’re just you’re that’s what you were just speaking to about being right being the expert, knowing the answer. And, you know, one of the lines I’ve been fond of saying lately is that, you know, social justice work is not sorting. It’s about change, right? And you’re talking about, is this about deciding who gets it or not? Are we talking about being effective letting go of rightness, so Well, we are running out of time, believe it or not, I feel like we just got started. It’s a wonderful book. I really encourage folks to do that. But this podcast is called Student Affairs NOW, I would just love to hear from each of you real quick. What is it that right now you’re thinking troubling, or pondering can be something we’ve discussed or something happening in the world. And if you want to share where folks can connect with you go ahead and share that. And we’ll start with you, Charles, what do you troubling now?

Charles Martin Stanley II
Well, thank you. So I’ve just been thinking about, we’re talking a little bit more about metaphors and symbolism. And for me, you know, we live in a society where we’re always you would say, focused on the destination, the angle, what are the you know, what are the what are the action items? How are we going to do it? But for me, personally, the theory of being is about not necessarily destination, but the journey, and then that process and, and also, something I’ve been thinking about and pondering is what happens if you mess up? What happens if you don’t get it right. And something that I talked about in my DEI trainings, specifically around ally ship is there’s no perfect way to do it. I think it’s the same with the theory of being you’re not going to, you know, wake up one day and say I get it like I’ve, I’ve accomplished or mastered the theory of being but it is something that you can continue to work on and continue to come back to these conferences. Asians and, and use these skills and you know, in order to have you know the difficult dialogues or you can use it I use it in my you know practice when I’m you know forming new initiatives for our students to make sure that every student feels welcomed, respected and included on campus. And so that’s a little bit about what kind of what I’ve been what I’ve been thinking about if anyone has any questions for me or, you know, wants to reach out, you can reach me on LinkedIn at Charles Martin Stanley, and I’d be happy to connect.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, you reminded me of Brene Brown talking about moving from being right to getting it right. Right. And then that Constant Learner focused. Milad, what are you troubling now?

Milad Mohebali
Gosh, there’s so many but but I think one topic that shows up in the chapter that I wrote. And I think it emerged as I was writing it, and I was leaning into my own personal narrative. And it’s also becoming more and more present for me as I’m thinking of teaching a course on diversity, and increasingly, next semester, is that question of protecting people from harm, which I’m totally sympathetic to, but also, I can’t always escape it in the ways that it positions me or whoever it is that you expect people to save them from Savior ism, from reducing people essentializing their identities, because we have to assume we know how to protect them. Or even if we can even protect people from harm, as if you know that like you do something in the classroom that’s like, protects people, then they are somehow saved from racism, which is not the case, knowing that people go into a city or outside or different places, and in school, and the system continuously. It’s kind of like for me, stickiness of you know how to create a space that’s both doesn’t reproduce harm, but also doesn’t push people not to be vulnerable or not to be in a conversation that can be authentic. And I think there is greatness in in other ways that there are tensions that are for me productive, and I’m continuing to think about, you know, what does harm mean? Or what does it mean a conversation that invites and asks people to be more vulnerable and be more authentic? And what does that mean, specifically around conversations around race and racism, when it’s done it you know, across racially. So that’s, that’s one of the more secure parts that I think have and continue to think about. And as far as reaching out, I would love to hear what folks think, when they hear their conversations, I would love to be in contact, and my email would be the best way to reach out to me. I’m also currently at least continuing to be active on Twitter, and my handle is milppaa

Keith Edwards
All right, thank you. Well, Gordon, we deemed you the cleanup expert. We’re gonna have you go next, just to get you. So off your off your final. What are you troubling now?

Gordon Louie
Yeah, something that I’m thinking a lot about, and it does also really connect to the work is how do we make our interactions less transactional? And I’m thinking about this in the context of my role. This is something that again, you know, shout out to my counsel at work that I work very closely with, I love them. And they brought up that idea. It’s like we, I should also give context of the company that I work for is fully remote. We’re distributed across nine US states, and all US timezones, essentially. So it’s hard when everything’s digital. And it really speaks, and it pushes the boundaries, I think, at this work to conceptualize in that way, because at first that’s not you know, how this work was conceptualized is how do we keep these practices in the spirit of these practices to be able to implement them in a way across a distributed environment? You know,

Keith Edwards
How do you do a circle process on Zoom?

Gordon Louie
Exactly, exactly, that that kind of stuff. And the other thing is just like, I think general community building, you know, one of the, one of the ways that I use the book, even though it’s only been out for a short time, is to really I know, I can’t have access to the team all the time. But one of the things I love the most about the team is that it’s invitation, the invitation to join is always there. And I use it to connect that it’s like if I have to think more deeply about a problem regarding resistance, or empathy, I can actually turn to a chapter in the book and I can, you know, at least temporarily connect to another member of the team that’s actually kind of written about it. But for folks, you know, I think other folks can use it in the same way. But thinking more broadly about how do we build those communities of support. I think for folks that are looking to do it, they’re hungry for this, but they need that support to help them get there especially in the face of things like resistance.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, well, you’re reminding me earlier you talked about what what you heard people yearning for they’re doing but there when you bring in bring being there, yearning for it. Awesome Duhita. What are you troubling thinking about pondering now?

Duhita Mahatmya
It makes me want to third thing, the idea of power, like, what is our relationship to power? What have our experiences been on both sides as someone who has been in a position of power, or someone that has, you know, is in relationship with someone in a position of power and how that influences, you know, things like Gordon, what you mentioned, how we view things, perhaps as transactional, or Milad, is what you were talking about with harm. And I think for me, a lot of it is around labor, in academia, and I think that’s something where if I think about the College of Ed and the anti racism collaborative, there have been conversations right now, how do we create groups where folks can be in conversation, when you know, in academia, there are these structures and hierarchies that give people whether formally or informally power to enact things, or to just be a certain way? So that’s kind of what it makes me think about is, in the situations that I find myself where I’m noticing either a tension or power struggles, you know, how can I return to the theory of being and I love the way you phrase it, Gordon, be in conversation with some of the team members, even if they’re not around me to think through, to think through that? So that’s kind of where I am. And I think there’s a macro level implications for that, too. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Well, Sherry, that you brought this crew together, I’m jealous, they get to be in conversation, enriching and rewarding, in so many ways, and you’re evoking so much thought and reflection and different ways of being, what would you like to close this out with what you’re thinking, troubling or pondering now?

Sherry K. Watt
Well, yeah, just gratitude for this group of people here and all over the years that have been in community and in conversation. And I mean, we share credit for that, because it wouldn’t have evolved in the way that it has, unless these people were in conversation at very particular time. So I mean, lots of gratitude for that. And I was thinking about what you said about, you know, this is a spiritual or soulful theory, and, you know, and the hierarchies of education that Duhita spoke about. And I think that when people hear what, you know, my background is in counseling, you know, my training, they think, though this theory is about counseling, or this theory is about, you know, spirituality, and therefore, I’m going to reject it. And part of me, might what troubles me is, how did your humanity get wrapped up in, you know, some idea of what it means to be human, that you would reject it because it says it’s, it’s about counseling, or you have, you have categorized it as about counseling, or you’ve categorized it, you know, I think that gives us an excuse to dehumanize people, when we’re in academia, we stick to these hierarchies. And we then it allows me, I can play the game of sliding someone here or sliding someone there because they don’t fit in the hierarchy. And I don’t need to involve my feelings, my head is big enough, my brain isn’t big enough, my intellect big enough. So I don’t even need to deal with anything that has to do with my feeling or anything that has to do with how I translate that. So part of what I feel like we get a lot of resistance about when we talk about this idea of being as people resist the fact that you said that you came to higher education, to transform either higher education, or the society, well get to work, get to work and do that work. Don’t point at it, don’t talk about it, don’t perform it, get at it, and do that work. And I think this theory invites that, you know, and if you don’t want to do it, and you think the name of higher education is to point at it, and you think that that is what it does, and you want to continue to perpetuate that dehumanizing way of being, then I think that I can see why because that’s the nature of the beast. But I think I thought I was signing up to be in higher education, to transform the system to make it more inclusive. And I want to get to work to do that. So I know I sound less Invitational and more confrontive right now.

Keith Edwards
You sound proud and grateful. And you sound like you have a sense of urgency, and you’re not in it for the Twitter likes.

Sherry K. Watt
No. Matter of fact, I will not be sharing my twitter so no, I mean, so that’s where it troubles me and that’s where I’m I’m like, I’m willing to get down dirty with you in this fight. So let’s do that, you know, let’s get to get to that messiness. But if you don’t want to, that’s okay. But just don’t. I don’t like the hypocrisy of acting like you care about it. You know, and I don’t think this work is the only avenue for that. I think that anybody can find that avenue. But that’s the sentiment that troubles me. And I think that if you want to do it, then get to doing it. So, and that might involve a combination of thinking, feeling and acting. And that alignment, which is what this work, tries to invite.

Keith Edwards
I think it involves vulnerability and authenticity, and those things are scary and criticizing and critiquing or safer. And then particularly in a neck up kind of way. Yeah, well, I’m not sure I’m ready to run so well. I’m fired up, I hear a call to action. Thanks all so much for being here for joining us for contributing to this wonderful book for sharing your stories, your insights into bringing sort of the essence of being to the conversation today. I appreciate it so much. And thanks to our sponsors of today’s episode, Stylus and Vector Solutions. Stylus is proud to be the sponsor of the Student Affairs NOW podcasts browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at styluspub.com. Use promo code SANOW for 30% all of their books plus free shipping including this one. You can also find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn and Twitter @styluspub, and Vector Solutions. How will your institution rise to reach today’s socially conscious generation, the students report commitments to safety well being and inclusion are as important as academic rigor when selecting a college. It’s time to reimagine the work of student affairs as an investment, not an expense. For over 20 years Vector Solutions, which now includes the campus Prevention Network, formerly EverFi has been the partner of choice for more than 2000 colleges, universities and national organizations. With nine efficacy studies behind their courses, you can trust and have full confidence that you’re using the standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion. Transform the future of your institution and the community you serve. Learn more at vectorsolutions.com/studentaffairsnow. A huge shout out as always, to our producer Natalie Ambrosey who does all of the behind the scenes work to make all of us look and sound good. And if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com. Scroll to the bottom of the homepage and add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out the archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests and to everyone who is watching and listening. Please make it a great week. Thank you all so much.

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