Jay Mehta: It’s if you tell a kid not to push the red button, they’re gonna wanna push the red button, right?

So I think there’s ways to use AI constructively, which is also part of the conversation. So if we’re using like Google Slides, or we’re using Canva when we’re writing papers, even when we’re typing in emails, right?

AI is all around us. And so what we try to sh- demonstrate to these students, ’cause they all have one-to-one iPads in our school district. We use the SMART Board. And we’ll actually like type with them in real time as a fun challenge for us as teachers. Just “Look, like we’re constructing this essay along with you.”

And to make it more possible, and that there’s actual joy in the process. Because I think it was in one of the episodes of, Student Affairs NOW where positive struggle. So like showing the joy of the iterative nature of writing. And nothing can take away from that.

But certainly you can tweak it and there can be assists, but that’s what it is. Like you’re the human. Put in the endeavor, and there’s real joy to be had there. But like we do have to convince them in the beginning until they start getting it,

Heather Shea: Hello. Welcome to Student Affairs NOW, the online learning community for student affairs educators. I am your host, Heather Shea. Today on the epis- on the podcast, we are doing something a little different. This conversation is part of our inaugural Student Affairs NOW Book Club, a new opportunity for members of our learning community on Patreon to engage with timely books and important conversations shaping higher education and student affairs.

Our first selection is Peril and Promise: College Leadership in Turbulent Times by Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum. We chose this book because Dr. Tatum offers a thoughtful and hopeful perspective on leading institutions through periods of uncertainty, change, and challenge, something many of us are navigating every day.

Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in, alongside, or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com.

Before we dive in I want to also mention that if you’d like to engage more deeply with the Student Affairs NOW learning community on Patreon and continue the conversation beyond the podcast or beyond the book even, you can join us on Patreon at patreon.com/studentaffairsnow. Anyway, I am your host, as I mentioned, for today’s episode, Heather Shea.

My pronouns are she, her, and hers, and I am broadcasting from the ancestral, traditional, and contemporary lands of the Anishinaabe, Three Fires Confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi peoples, otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University, where I work. Today, I am joined by two members of our Patreon community who signed up to discuss Peril and Promise: College Leadership in Turbulent Times by Dr.

Beverly Daniel Tatum. Our conversation inspired by her book, but our goal is not to just review every chapter or test whether anyone finished the book. Instead, we’re gonna use the book as a starting point for a conversation about leadership, higher education, and the challenges and opportunities facing our campus today.

We have also created a discussion guide that is available through the Student Affairs NOW Patreon community. It includes additional reflection questions, many more than we’ll have time to cover during this hour, and it is designed to help you facilitate conversations with colleagues on your campus, within your team, or with other professional communities.

Super excited to welcome Dr. Aja Holmes and Jay Mehta to the conversation today. Welcome.

Aja Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I’m Dr. Aja Holmes. I’m the Assistant Dean of Students, Director of Community Living at the University of San Francisco.

My pronouns are she, her, and sis. I’ve been here for about five years. So I think I’m going into my sixth year this coming July 1 will be my sixth year here at University of San Francisco. And I oversee the residence halls off-campus area, so students who are- Oh … living in the neighborhood, and then also to our basic needs of food pantry area.

So I also run that. And one of the things that they really wanted us to look at was one of the Jesuit values, which is that cura personalis, which is care for the person, care for the whole person in creating the Office of Community Living, and those are some very caring parts of the university that we have that touches those students in those areas.

I wanna say that I think that it- I’m a little bit blessed- … because of the fact that our chancellor at the time when some of the turbulent things were happening, dear with the dear colleague letter i- said that, DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion is our North Star.

Please do not change anything.

That is the literally the Jesuit values are that and that’s just what this institution is built upon, and that has been a release for us to do that and to be able to continue to, do some things. Some small pivots, y- here or there, but I don’t think nothing that really was too substantial to lay people off or anything of that nature.

And so I think that is that has been a bit of a blessing for us. But it’s also too, I’ve had to support, colleagues across the country who was dealing with some- … of this as well, and doing that. And I think that I know you put the l- the word in here that I was gonna choose, which is, leadership in turbulent times, but turbulent is my word.

Turbulent … I think that is something there where we’re really are, that attacking on people’s identities and who they are and how they are showing up in, in their most authentic ways is being attacked by this administration. And it’s hard to sit there and watch that happen to people you work with and people you really care about.

Heather Shea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think with turbulent is such a good word too because, like, when you’re on a plane and you’re experiencing turbulence, like you can’t do anything about it. All you can do is kinda hold on and- … and hope that the pilot can navigate through it, right? And so there’s so many metaphors that’s, that translates to.

That’s such a good word. Yeah. Jay, how about you? Tell us a little bit about who you are and what your word is right now.

Jay Mehta: Sure. So I’m Jay Mehta. My pronouns are he, him, his. I’m currently an English language arts teacher based in the Greater Philadelphia area, and I’m also an EdD candidate in my second year.

Currently my research is focused on student leadership development. So Aja, when you mentioned about what it means to look at holistic care, I’m focused on a lot of holistic learning theory for that leadership development as well. And then I would say one word that came to mind for me, especially in my kind of juxtaposition, is choice.

Because if I’m in the public school setting, folks ask me “Oh you wanna go to higher ed? Like, why?” And then folks in higher ed, they’re like, “Oh tell me more about the public school world.” So I feel like I’m making these choices, and any choice that I’m making, that I have to back it with intention, so I’m not I’m privy to of course, the issues in both fields.

But I feel like wholesale the field of education is my choice, and I’m curious to see, just what the, how I would navigate those waters in higher ed. And having gone to the ACPA 26 convention just getting a better sense of how things are operating it, it honestly just, it does excite me, right?

I, I see opportunity, I see choice. That’s kinda where I’m at right now.

Heather Shea: That’s great. That’s great. I’m a participant, so I’m gonna also go through and participate as well. Yay. Yay. So Heather Shea, she/her pronouns. I work as the director of the Pathways Persistence Programs at Michigan State, and I’ve been in this role for almost two years, but I’ve been at Michigan State since 2013.

We’re on president number six if you’re, if if anybody’s counting. I don’t know if that’s gonna come up in today’s conversation or not. I’m a pla- I’m a proud graduate, though, of Michigan State’s HAIL program. And so I’m a proud Spartan. But I think, from the context of my institution it feels really turbulent.

I think turbulent is a great word. But I’ll choose a different one because Aja took that one. … I will say I’ll say it feels really heavy. It feels like every single decision that we’re making has tremendous consequences, and so the heaviness, I think, that’s sitting on our institution, and when you have that kind of feeling of like I’m stuck or I can’t move ’cause I’m just in this state of somewhat an, of inertia, it just feels every single tiny inch that you do move is is a hard battle.

The programs that I get to work with are student persistence and retention programs. TRIO Student Surfor- Support Service is probably the one that most people know, but all of them are cohort-based programs focusing on student populations that are historically underrepresented but also minoritized in current context.

And so it’s, yeah as you all were discussing the way that DEI is being attacked, it’s like we have to figure out how we’re gonna do that work despite that because our students are our students. And as, at the institutional level, we need to figure out how to create pathways, and that, thus my unit’s name is Pathways,

yeah, so just out of broad curiosity, what resonated with the book? What did you think as you were going through it that, that kind of stuck out to you? There was a story or something that challenged you?

Aja Holmes: I think for me the book is definitely right on time.

It, right on time in terms of what we’re going through, and to be able to have just another set of words and language to put to what we’re going through is very helpful. To also look to some ideas that might help us all navigate how we can work with what’s happening with this administration.

And I hate to bring it back to them, but I really don’t think that we’ll be in this situation if it wasn’t for this administration. I think that is pretty clear, right? And so I think looking at that part for me was being able to have another tool that I can use to help me navigate what we’re going through.

Heather Shea: Yeah. This, the story that she tells at the very beginning about the student who went to New College in Florida and who made friends that was a part of this white supremacist Neo-Nazi, his family had homeschooled him, and that’s all he knew, right? And he goes to New College, which at that point in time was a completely different institution than it is today.

But New College was one of the more liberal socially just organizations and institutions. But this white nationalist goes to New College, and then doesn’t, disclose this background, but then at some point his friends find out, right? And his own, like awareness and recognition and then conversation…

it was just, it was a fascinating story about the impact that college has on students, and maybe it’s that exact story that is creating so much fear, because it really does have the power to transform perspectives and when it’s held up against the conversation. And these, the folks who were engaging with him, they weren’t all, they weren’t all willing to sit in that with him.

But it seemed he was able to later articulate a really different different perspective. So anyway that… As I think about the attacks on higher ed, like where did they stem from? I think it partially comes from this place of fear. Or we’re afraid that our colleges are going to completely change people’s minds, which they do, and that’s a good thing

Jay Mehta: Yeah, I think we don’t see enough of those in the headlines about an attempt to, have folks engage in genuine conversation with one another when they have polarizing views because that feels like what it is right now, right?

Because it is, to be clear it is that, but it’s also this. It’s the nuance of people who were born and brought up and raised in a different culture, and then they have the culture shock. And then there’s folks who are willing to say, “Hey,” this is what we think, this is what we believe.

Let’s hear about what you think, what you believe, and let’s have dialogue.” So I, I also s- you know, I also resonated with that because I see that a lot in my, my own students. As young as they are, like they’re just, like 11 and 12 years old, and the way that we try to have them construct civil discourse with each other is, it’s a lot of heavy lifting in the beginning of the school year, I will say, because a lot of the dialogue that they have outside of the classroom is very virtual, I will say, right? Like-

…

Jay Mehta: Pandemic affected everything in terms of how we communicate. And with my students ’cause they’re Gen Alpha, and so for them it’s a lot of like Discord, right?

Or, like chatting through video games that they play. When they’re talking in person, a lot of that code switching doesn’t happen. They’re still in the same kind of mindset we’re just talking to each other like we’re tapping on a keyboard, right? Then they bring that into the classroom, and so then we have to have an agreement, say folks, like this is we have to make sure we’re respecting each other in terms of how we speak to one another, even if we have, and especially when we have differing viewpoints, right?

So I also found that to be a, to be to be resonant. For me another point, too, was just- How Dr. Tatum was talking about just managing- Yeah … the the campus conflicts. During times of political tension. And the thr- like, I just remember it ’cause she sa- she mentioned “Here are the three things,” right?

Just, if you can help either doing these things or not doing them. And she said “Number one, listen to students,” right? Listen to them. See, what they’re advocating for, how they’re advocating, right? The second one, and I feel like the first one was I don’t know it felt kind of common sense, right?

Of course you should- Yeah … listen to your students. The second one was, like it surprised me, but then not really ’cause I’m still faculty myself. So I’m like- … of course I’m gonna talk to faculty because that’s what I do already. But I guess once you cross over into the threshold of, like- administrative staff, maybe you don’t always think of that, right? So speaking with faculty because they are sometimes spending, they’re front-facing, so sometimes they’re spending more time with students than their own family members or their peers and those kind of things. And then the third, don’t call the cops.

Yeah. Just because once you do that, then- Yeah … the media storm begins and it’s just, it’s a real rock and a hard place situation, to say the least, right? And so it was interesting to me to see her name these three things, but then see how many leaders might have not demonstrated either one of those or, like, all three of those.

And then we see the headlines in the news and those kind of things. So that was what resonated with me, and I’m like, it’s gonna be like a sticky note on my laptop when I do cross over higher ed eventually.

Heather Shea: Yeah, that, that part was really interesting. I think the protests and the encampments following the October 7th attack and then the subsequent, war against Hamas, and it- it’s- it- that was a huge tension point. Aja, did that bubble up on your campus?

Aja Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. We did. Definitely during the la- last academic year. We haven’t had any much this- Yeah … this year, but-

Heather Shea: yeah …

Aja Holmes: I thought one of the coolest things was when we had the protests or the camps it was over graduation weekend, and the camps made a graduation backdrop for folks who the, who would come over and get a photo taken with the little graduation backdrop.

I thought that was so creative. I was like, “You all are just…” Yes. That’s pretty cool. Students, yes. But yeah. It hasn’t been so much this year, but-

Heather Shea: Yeah … it

Aja Holmes: has been. Yeah.

Heather Shea: But who responds and how they respond, I’ve- … it’s just been interesting because I’ve been a part of a search process for a new AVP on our campus, and- we’ve been talking about, like, when students are upset and they make demands they wanna talk to the president. Yeah … they wanna talk to the vice president of student affairs, right? They don’t necessarily wanna talk to their advisor. They wanna have, They want it to go all the way up to the president.

And I’m just, I’m struck by the amount of responsibility that, that puts on the person at that, in that role in particular. So yeah. It’s fascinating.

Jay Mehta: Yeah. And it calls back to as well, like when the students were doing the in the office, I think, right? Yeah. They,

Heather Shea: Oh,

Jay Mehta: they just they were like we’re not leaving until, you at least take a look through these demands and stuff.” And I love how Dr. Tatum, again, it was just like, I feel like everything’s a conversation, and she had a conversation with them, and she said, “Look we can’t achieve all of these, but I’m willing to accomplish some of these.”

And then you allow, that progressive time to pass and those goals to be accomplished, and then you get somewhere that folks can optimally agree on. And I thought that was so smart and strategic, ’cause that’s that’s the responsibility. And then you see how somebody does that in an objective fashion, right?

It’s here’s the policy, here are the facts, here’s what I can do. So I thought that was a, that was really powerful as an example.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

What were some other things that have come up as you’ve read the book that resonated compared to issues that are happening in your own spaces or comments that you heard her make that would be relevant here?

Jay Mehta: I can be the one to bring up AI if nobody else is gonna bring it up. Someone has to, right? Yeah.

Aja Holmes: Yes.

Jay Mehta: Yeah so the AI stuff, like it’s … And it’s really fascinating because again, like I, I never thought of it this way being a sixth grade teacher, and then, of course Heather, you and I talked about this before, but- Yeah

I’m gonna move into seventh grade next year. But it’s still, like relatively, still Gen Alpha. And seeing the way that even in early middle school, the ways they interact with AI Like even with the lack of proficiency to quote unquote get away with things. But the attempt of what they try to do.

And I tell them, “Look,” I’m like, “Guys, at this age you’re- it’s more work for you to try to use AI to cheat than to just do the work and- … and be done with it,” that’s at least how I try to like, phrase it. But I think what… I think what worries me is what worries a lot of folks.

But I would take a look at, what’s promising, which is that not… It’s if you tell a kid not to push the red button, they’re gonna wanna push the red button, right?

So I think there’s ways to use AI constructively, which is also part of the conversation. So if we’re using like Google Slides, or we’re using Canva when we’re writing papers, even when we’re typing in emails, right?

AI is all around us. And so what we try to sh- demonstrate to these students, ’cause they all have one-to-one iPads in our school district. We use the SMART Board. And we’ll actually like type with them in real time as a fun challenge for us as teachers. Just “Look, like we’re constructing this essay along with you.”

And to make it more possible, and that there’s actual joy in the process. Because I think it was in one of the episodes of, Student Affairs NOW where positive struggle. So like showing the joy of the iterative nature of writing. And nothing can take away from that.

But certainly you can tweak it and there can be assists, but that’s what it is. Like you’re the human. Put in the endeavor, and there’s real joy to be had there. But like we do have to convince them in the beginning until they start getting it, and then they’re working with that.

And I’m trying to, to the best of my ability, make sure that my Gen Alpha kids, when they cross over into higher ed, that they’ll be good students for y’all. That’s what I’m trying to do. So that’s my piece.

Aja Holmes: That we appreciate. Yeah. We appreciate. We’ve got to do the preparation, for that, and we do.

I love my- when I get the chance to talk to folks who are, in that middle school, high school. I had the opportunity to work with fifth graders, because that’s one of the determining- … times where there’s some important tests that happen, and it really makes the decision in terms of that prison to pipeline,

Prison to school pipeline. Especially for the, Black and brown community. So I had- Yeah … opportunities to write letters with them, with college students- Oh … with a class I was teaching at another institution. And it was the cutest little thing when they would come to campus. And so we do appreciate that.

I think for me it was looking at how we wanted to get back to whatever normal we thought was there after the pandemic.

When we know that a normal wasn’t working.

And how so much we’ve been trying to do that. And I think for me, that was also looking at, did you not just real- or trying to think about it, did you not just realize what we went through?

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Aja Holmes: And that productivity didn’t stop You know, and where is the flexibility and where is the opportunity to be a part or to let people have a little bit more ownership in terms of how they are producing the work?

And so it also brought for me, ’cause my area of expertise is looking at supervision skill development, it brought out for me all of the what do you call those people? The micro managers.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Aja Holmes: The light. It brought them to the surface.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Aja Holmes: For me. And I think that was something that was, there.

Also too, I’m glad you brought up the AI in terms of how we’re able to navigate the use of this AI and, I… One of the professors is “There’s no more essays for me. I’m not doing any more essays.”

Heather Shea: That, that’s a good question, right? Then what what are the assessments and, what’s our responsibility?

I think it’s also keeping up with it and, I don’t know. The technology is changing so fast, I think that’s the other point she’s trying to make.

…

Heather Shea: But that there’s some tools. Like I think when she was talking about Khanmigo, which we actually use on our campus, it’s an AI tutoring platform.

It doesn’t tell you the answer, but it asks you questions that you’re supposed to iteratively, And we’ve been using it in a math program here, but, the thing that you said, Jay, about the students and how they’re using it and what kind of impact that might have, we- we’re seeing students coming in with SAT scores which would indicate they would be coming into entry level math.

But then their math placement score at our institution, which they take unproctored is like super high. And my son, who happens to be a high school senior, just finished high school a couple weeks ago I was talking to him. I’m like, “Do you think people are cheating on the math placement exam?

Because we’re seeing this like huge discrepancy in scores.” He’s “Duh.” I was like, “Of course they are.” I’m like, “But do they realize the implications of that?” Because that basically means that they’re gonna be put in a math class that’s gonna be way too hard for them, which they might not do well in.

And if they don’t do well in that, and also concurrently registered in chem and bio, because those are aligned they might have a first semester that’s your GPA is irretrievable after that point, right? And so you, it’s better to authentically, it’s more work to take to take the the lower or the cheating route than it will be ultimately to just do it yourself and be placed in the math class- And, and-

that would be best for your ability

Jay Mehta: And what does that tell us? Is that the students are willing to do the work in some way, shape, or form, right? Yeah. So what I do see is I do see students wanting to put in the work, but especially my my young population, they are very direct about their disengagement with material- if they’re disengaged, right? They don’t play. If they’re if they’re not engaged, they’re gonna sleep. They’re gonna just zone out, and there’s … it’s very difficult to get them back in that same class.

Aja Holmes: Yeah.

Jay Mehta: So outside of the showmanship of what you gotta do as faculty in a middle school setting I think I try to flip the script in my mind.

I’m like, “Okay, so I see that they want to be engaged, but then there’s a disconnect with the material and the way that they’re engaging it, so then what can I do?” I have to find ways to make it relevant. Now, for me, I say … ‘Cause we always have these fun rivalries, right? What’s the best core content subject?

I’m saying ELA all day- … because there’s nothing like the power of storytelling to incentivize, to your point, Aja- … Black and Brown youth especially, because I was that. When I was growing up, I did not see myself in the canon, and I actually hated reading and writing growing up. I share that with my kids every year at the beginning of the school year.

I’m like, “Did you know that your English teacher hated reading and writing growing up?” They’re like, “What? Mr. Mehta, like, how could you?” And I’m like, “Let me tell you,” right? For me it was like I, I eventually understood the power of storytelling. I started writing my own. And because I wanted to get better at writing my own, I knew I had to read more stories to get better at that.

Dipped into my own cultural heritage to figure out what those stories were there, and a lot of that is, it’s coming more to the fruition. But sometimes it takes a certain educator. It takes a certain kind of curriculum, if not the best combination of both, to really get a kid to be like, “Wow I can actually like reading and writing.”

And I think if we can somehow make that attempt, then they’ll meet us halfway. They will. Yeah. And mathematics especially I always loved math growing up but I think that especially nowadays it has to be applied mathematics. Yeah. So the kids want math. They just want it to be relevant. Make it make sense, right?

Like how is this gonna be meaningful to them for engineering or for robotics or even for gaming, right? Like when, students in h- high school are thinking about what they’re gonna do with AI and math in the future companies like AMD, Intel, NVIDIA they’re actively talking about AI, and it’s very lucrative.

So we have to be at least understanding that same language if not speaking it and bringing some of those experts in as well so that it can be in-house, so that we don’t have to keep outsourcing, these brilliant experts who can showcase to our students you can get more of this in higher ed.

Heather Shea: Yeah. Why do you think she named the book Peril and Promise? What i- what is… i’m really curious about this word peril, ’cause it sounds so doomsday, right?

Jay Mehta: As a title, I’m jealous because it is starts with two Ps, peril and promise. It’s just, it’s- I

Heather Shea: know …

Jay Mehta: it’s catchy, but it- The

Heather Shea: alliteration is fantastic

Aja Holmes: I think for me, looking at the the title it’s almost like we have … In order to build, something has to be destroyed. Right? Unless you got all the land in the world, right? But, and in- not necessarily destroying things in terms of literal things, but, systems of oppression- ways we are doing. Those things have to be destroyed in order for us to to get to the promise part. And I think that’s how I’m, I am taking the book, right now. Of that, in terms of looking at it from how do we go from one to the other.

Or just the rap song says, “At this point in time, we can only go up.”

Yeah. Only way up, right? Only way up, yeah. We so far down.

Heather Shea: Yeah. I was struck, and part of this is also because I take a group of students to Europe, and when I get to Europe we spend time with college students who are going to school in the Netherlands and Belgium, right?

And inevitably, the question of cost of higher ed comes up because in the US the costs are astronomical. I don’t know that our students really see that necessarily until they get to Europe and then they realize, “Oh, you’re paying 2,000 euros a year for tuition?” They … The … it’s so dramatically different.

And so when I have that conversation with both my students as well as the students in these two other countries the thing, and she talks about this a lot, and I think this is where the peril comes in for me around the way that we have moved from higher education in the United States being a public good that benefits larger society, an educated populace of s- citizens who are engaged, is the desire.

And so therefore, the public should help pay for higher ed, right? Instead, we’ve moved towards this belief that the benefit of higher ed is to the individual, primarily to the individual, ’cause they’re gonna make a million dollars more. We’ve all hear, heard these statistics, right? If you get a bachelor’s degree, you’re gonna make a million dollars more over the course of your lifetime.

And so because it individually benefiting you as a student, you’re the one who has to pay for it. And so this public trust in higher education has just eroded so dramatically, and I don’t know how we get that- That’s the part that also feels really perilous. I don’t know how we get that back right now, ’cause I don’t know that we have done a great job of telling our story.

The research that higher ed contributes to and her s- her kind of discussion of college finances and how that all works this should be required reading for everybody before they pay their taxes, right? Like- Yeah … here’s why higher ed needs part of your… K12 needs it too, and don’t get me wrong, but to completely divest at the state level from supporting the institutions in your state, I don’t know.

And I’m also coming from a, from a public state institution. I know that’s not the case for you all. But yeah, I don’t know. That public trust in higher ed is scary.

Aja Holmes: Heather, when you look at that the history of when that changed, I wanna say it was Reagan’s era, I think it was when it, or during his presidency.

You also have to look at the demographics in terms of- Yeah … who was in college and who was expected to come, right? There was research done on the numbers of Black and brown and how that was increasing.

And you have to think about it from a systematic era, is that they want you to think that it was because it was benefiting the individual, but in addition to it also too, it turned, right?

It flipped to where most of the-

…

Aja Holmes: Burden was put on the families and the person to pay for school-

…

Aja Holmes: Because of the increasing numbers of Black and brown folks who were going to be entering- … into higher education.

So we have to- Yeah … also look at that-

Heather Shea: Yeah …

Aja Holmes: in terms of that.

There was a report written during the Reagan’s administration that is one of the foundations for this replacement theory.

Heather Shea: Yeah

Aja Holmes: And I can look it up and send it to you.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Aja Holmes: Yeah. Because not only that, there’s other social programs that were also taken away- … during that time.

Heather Shea: Does it go along with kind of this, myth of meritocracy, the pull yourself up by the bootstraps and- … work hard, American dream kind of-

Aja Holmes: Okay …

Heather Shea: kind of piece? Yeah.

It’s just a unique contrast when you consider how other countries have treated higher education or just education- period. Yeah … refugee education in the Netherlands for example is a completely different thing.

Aja Holmes: Everything’s different in the Netherlands.

Heather Shea: I know.

Aja Holmes: I know. Isn’t that one of the most happiest places to live? Is that one of the places there, between them and Finland or something? One of them, yeah.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Jay Mehta: Yeah. Norway. Yeah.

Aja Holmes: Norway,

Heather Shea: Yeah. Yeah. All the sc- all these upper, European, Scandinavian countries for sure.

Jay Mehta: And then the, for the public school world, like for professional development, we’re obsessed with Finland’s the way they do things. Yeah. They somehow cracked the code on- They did

on education there.

Yeah, just just thinking more about the the title With Peril and Promise. I think something that, that was clicking for me this school year was that- Things are always good and things are always bad. And I think somehow with peril and promise, it’s not like an either/or, it’s like a both/and.

These are things that are just happening. They’re fluid, they’re meshing together. Sometimes it’s 60/40, sometimes it’s 80/20, but I think that’s just, again, I should go back to what you said about the s- like what was this normal that we’re trying to get back to?

Whether you wanna call this the new normal, abnormal, whatever kind of, thing it is. But it’s just, it’s whether you’re aware of it, ’cause that’s the other thing too. To what degree do folks have awareness about things that are or are not happening? And nobody has all the awareness, right?

So that’s why it, it like, like institutional bench strength matters. Who’s on your team- Yeah … and who’s around you to help you with your blind spots? And that’s wh- I think that’s what Dr. Tatum talks about as well, right? Because like you can’t just be on the front lines every time.

Like you gotta take a vacation, if you’re gonna last in the role or whatever the role is. And so peril and promise speaks to me because it’s, it like, it is the juxtaposition, it is the both/and. And it’s knowing and naming that yes, here are the things that are bad that we have to deal with somehow, but we can deal with them, right?

There’s nothing that can’t be dealt with. And we have history to prove that. And so I think when we remind ourselves of that and who we’ve come from, then we recognize that there are s- strategies that we can use. And there’s, yeah, there’s just always a way. And I think it comes back to, again, like the conversations, right?

Like we’re all in a human endeavor at the end of the day- … in the field of education, right? So it’s we’re dealing with people. As long as we, as long as we can, right? We’re still dealing with people. And as long as we’re dealing with people, there is a way.

Heather Shea: Aja, I wanna go back to something you asked about, which was, or that you were talking about, which is supervision.

And, like, how do you bring people along as a supervisor in, like- Less the peril part, but more the promise part, right? Because I think there is a, everything is horrible, we’re all, o- that kind of group discontent-

…

Heather Shea: Versus the group kind of critical hope.

Yes, we recognize things are not great, but we’re gonna- … work together to try to do something anyway. Yeah. Ta- I don’t know if you wanna talk a little bit about like how the supervisor does helps- … helps to create that environment.

Aja Holmes: I think for me it’s been a bit of trying to be as transparent as I can with my team- and talking about some of the ways that I am advocating for for us, especially when it comes to these budget cuts, right? Yeah. I think the other thing is utilizing a shared read that will talk about bit of a hope or also what are some of the positive experiences that students are having at the university level, and how we can continue to build upon that there.

And so I, I always try to use a reading or something during training that will collectively get us around a certain topic and idea, something that can be threaded throughout the rest of the academic year. And since we are on like the last year of the university strategic plan, so we’re at a we don’t, right, 27 is the end of it.

And then we’ll hopefully have another one coming up there soon too as well. Looking at how we can also thread that through. And so looking at over the past five years, how have we utilized that particular strategic plan and how that has helped us. So being able to, I think, to grab on to something that has a shared language and a shared goal not only for our department, but also for the institution is helpful.

And so reminding them where we were and where we’ve come from within the strategic plan, and trying to have some type of shared, we’re looking at an article or something that is not necessarily not even that I buy a book like I did last year, but is there an article that we can also read together that kind of- brings us together through that, so that way we can look towards hope and having a little bit of hope,

that’s how I’ve been able to navigate that for us.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

J, I was thinking about your comments about leadership and holistic leadership too, and I think that’s the, that’s one of my takeaways from listening, to her talk about her own leadership style and how she showed up as the president in these different times, both at Spelman and then at Mount Holyoke.

And the challenges that leaders face, whether they’re the president or wherever they are at the institution, because I think that’s the other theme is that this book isn’t just for people who serve as presidents. There are- it’s for anybody who works in higher ed or is interested in higher ed or considers the way that higher ed is under attack.

But I think this idea of leadership and culture building is really important. So that’s what I’m hearing you say, Aja, is like it’s about building the culture around strength and renewal and hope. But like how do we do that? What kind of leadership models do we need? As y- as you’ve been looking at your dissertation work, Jay, I’m curious about your thoughts on that, and did you see any evidence of those models in this book?

Jay Mehta: Yeah. So I almost wanna bridge off of what Aja was saying about transparency because I think that’s the key. Like when you have leaders who demonstrate vulnerability, again, just going back to the human- … the human element of what it is we do, that’s what makes us human, it’s when you can demonstrate authentically like who you are, what are your vulnerabilities, and how that’s not a sign of weakness.

You’re showcasing how you navigate through moments of error or just moments of, like weakness, but then how you come out of the other side as strength. Because, it’s one of those paradoxes, but it’s true. You can’t succeed unless you fail, not truly. And with our students I had the benefit of having had great co-teachers for my special education students.

And my one co-teacher, and I’ve since like permanently borrowed this from her, we do this routine every day called what’s good. It’s very simple. Every day we just have the students, i- if they want to they just they just verbalize what’s good in their day, what’s positive.

And we get to just talk about their weekends, their days things that they’re looking forward to, hobbies and interests that they have. And again, that that serves as a pathway back into civil discourse for when we are- … engaging in classroom novels where we’re talking about perhaps denser content and material.

And the reason why I’m going back to the word transparency is because in those moments, like we too get to share. Because it’s easy to just ask students to share, but then what about us? And so at times, like we also share things that are going on in our lives. Like not everything’s perfect, but we’ll say “Here’s the silver lining for me.”

If I’ve had a loss in the family or if I’ve experienced some sort of upset in like my career or you know- … something, right? Like we’ll share that with the kids even if we don’t think it was, will click with them in that moment whatever adult thing is going on.

But like they’re listening, they’re paying attention. And so I think that transparency piece, that vulnerability is really what I’m looking at in terms of holistic learning theory- … because looking at the whole child or in this ca- like the whole student, we have to be able to acknowledge all that they’re bringing to the table, and it’s a lot, right?

I like to say folks have a bunch of Venn diagrams, right? And when you’re trying to bring a person with a lot of Venn diagrams, it can collide with another person’s. And then all this is going on, and then you’re trying to find somewhere in the middle where people match, and that’s impossible.

But what you can do is you can have overlaps, and I think that’s possible, right? Like you can have overlaps. It’s just a matter of communicating and being vulnerable so that people know, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t know like you were going through that.” And yeah, that culture building too. I think that’s key.

When a leader can be vulnerable, it shows everybody else is psychologically safe enough to do the same.

Aja Holmes: Yep. I have that same philosophy. If I’m, transparent in saying, “Okay, here are the balls I’ve dropped, and here’s how I’m gonna get those back. They are… Here’s what I’m doing,” to tell folks that it…

They’ll come to you more in saying, “Okay, here’s where I messed up,” or, “Here’s where I need help,” or whatever. And so we have to also model that, and that’s what I do in terms of also too part of my supervision.

Jay Mehta: And not that I’ve seen the episode yet, but I want to. I think Keith, he just had the, his the author of the book on alpha leadership, right?

Doing away with, what’s the quote-unquote alpha leader. Because it’s not just a, a one man does everything type role. It’s just not. I- even where’s the fun in that, right? It’s more fun and the joy to just be able to collaborate with different people, not be the sole custodian of knowledge or expertise or wisdom in the room,

Heather Shea: yeah. Said. I think I’d love to just go towards closing round, final reflection. What’s something you take away from this from this book read other questions you’re still wrestling with, and then of course I always like the, what are you thinking about pondering, considering now?

Because we are called Student Affairs NOW. And I’ll also contribute too, but either one of you wanna start us off with closing thoughts?

Jay Mehta: Sure. For me I, h- honestly I go back to convention because that was such a remarkably unique experience for me. And I, I always love shouting him out when I can, Dr. Clint Michael Reneau, because he truly made that experience so worth it for me. The people who he introduced me to that I otherwise maybe wouldn’t have felt so comfortable like meeting.

And I remember when I was in the Dean of Students Institute training pre-convention, and he was one of the faculty members, and he had said… he has so many quotables. But one of the ones that stuck out to me was that “Crisis does not create a leader, it reveals them.” And I think I was thinking about that in my, in the back of my mind as I was listening to Peril and Promise, because that’s what Dr.

Tatum demonstrated, that there was a crisis, but it didn’t create her. It just revealed the type of leader that she already was or is. So that’s what I’m taking away from the book.

Heather Shea: Good. What are you thinking about, pondering, considering now? Is it, or is that your answer?

Oh, yeah.

Jay Mehta: I’ve always wanted to get this question, yay. So I think I think- I think what I’m pondering right now is opportunity. That’s where my head space is at. Fifth year of teaching next year. Final year of my doctorate. Again, fingers crossed, I hope to defend next spring semester. And just looking at, just the horizon, right?

As cliche- … as that sounds it just, it’s exciting to me. Because again yes, things are always good and things are always bad, but I’m just looking at how much opportunity there is there, and I wanna be able to really roll up my sleeves and do the work with good people and- just see where it takes me. So that’s, yeah, opportunity is on my mind right now.

Heather Shea: That’s great.

Aja Holmes: I think from today’s conversation I am, taking away I think the community instance of how we’re helping to shape students. And I’m looking at this, and when I was in grad school we were talking about this P through 20, right?

And it brought back for me- Yeah … that- … thinking about how are we partnering with our high schools, our middle schools to ensure that those there who are prepared for college. And just having a conversation with you, Jay, and the work that you’re doing with those middle schoolers, is awesome.

And so I think for me that is what I’ve tooken away took away from that is how do we move into a P-20 model, you know- Yeah … in terms of, making folks, ready for that. But at the same time, college isn’t for everybody. We know that.

But that still doesn’t mean that we don’t prepare you for it.

You may choose to not, do it or go in another route or, w- with that. You still need some of the skills for college for trade schools for the community college route. And so I, I think that there is room there that I wish that our Department of Education would look at,

in terms of that part. So I think that’s what I’m taking, from this particular conversation. As I teach first-year students, how can I look at it from a P-20 model in terms of how we’re partnering with some of our folks in there to ensure that folks are ready when they get to our campuses there?

And I think what I’m thinking about now and pondering or considering now because it’s Student Affairs NOW- … is navigating- A very tumultuous budget situation we have here going on- … here at the university, and how I’m able to still support and bring some excitement to- … training that will happen in probably less than a month.

So that’s what I’m pondering or considering now.

Heather Shea: Yeah. Oh, that’s good. Yeah, so for me, I think this conversation has been really interesting in tracking kind of how many of the themes in the book showed up as we were discussing. And I think I mentioned at the beginning, but the turkey and ham,

Story at the very end the piece of it is that Dr. Tatum arrives at Mount Holyoke. Her assistant says, “It’s time to order the turkeys and the hams.” And she’s “Why do we need turkeys and hams?” She’s every year you always, the president always sends turkeys and hams to the ground staff, the ground crew and the public safety officers.”

And she’s why do only they get them, A? B, why would I send turkey and hams? I’m vegetarian.” So just her ability to authentically then go to the meeting where they had to reveal they weren’t gonna get turkeys and hams that year and her kind of admitting and recognizing how that vulnerability not only was difficult, but also it was important that she as the leader show up and say that to that group of people.

So as I’m thinking about budget cuts and I’m thinking about, like, how as a leader you have to support your team through that moment, sometimes it’s about some of those hard you’re not getting the turkey and ham this year. And also, I think, through all of that, it’s who you are and how you show up in those spaces sometimes that matters.

Heather Shea:  Before we wrap up today’s episode, I want to take a moment to thank you, to say thank you to today’s inaugural book club participants. Thanks, Jay, thanks, Aja. And to everyone watching or listening today. Clint Michael, I hope that’s you. As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, you can connect with us more deeply with the Student Affairs NOW community through our Patreon.

Student Affairs NOW has always been more than a podcast. It’s a learning community for people who care deeply about higher education and student affairs. For the past five years, we’ve created space for conversations that inform, inspire, and affirm the work educators are doing across the field, and we are incredibly grateful for the listeners, guests, and collaborators who have helped this community grow.

Through Patreon, we’re creating even more ways for you to engage with the community, including discussion guides, facilitated book club conversations like this one, bonus content, and opportunities to help shape future discussions. In today’s conversation, if it sparked anything for you or sparked ideas for you, we encourage you to download and use the Student Affairs NOW Book Club Discussion Guide.

We intentionally included more questions than we would address in a single conversation so that you can continue the dialogue with colleagues, graduate students, staff teams, or professional communities on your own campus. If these conversations have ever sparked an idea for you or your work or helped you feel more connected to others in the field, we’d love to have you join us.

You can learn more and become a part of the community at patreon.com/studentaffairsnow. As always, huge shout-out to Nat Ambrosey, our incredible producer. Nat, your behind-the-scenes brilliance makes every episode possible, and we are so grateful for you. And as always, thanks to our listeners and viewers for being a part of this learning community.

I’m Heather Shea. Thanks for watching and listening. Let’s make it a great week