Mike Segawa
That self work, should never stop, it never stops. If you’re going to be an effective practitioner, and a wonderful human being it will never stop. You know, there were issues around this example, equity, inclusion and diversity that literally to my last day of full time work, I was learning about it. And it’s like, wow, I had not thought of that, you know

Mamta Accapadi
Welcome to Student Affairs now the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host Mamta Accapadi. Student Affairs NOW is a premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Stylus, visit styluspub.com and use promo code SAnow for 30% off and free shipping. Today’s episode is also sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of the student of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about each of our sponsors. As I mentioned, I’m Mamta Accapadi, my pronouns are she her hers, and I am broadcasting to you today from Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas is situated on the unseeded ancestral homeland of the people’s and now we welcome everyone, folks. It’s such a joy to be here in community with all of you today. And it’s among my greatest joy is to welcome our next guest, Mike Segawa. So many go through a professional bio, which I you know, that doesn’t do him justice. And I think it’s important to honor our journeys of our colleagues. Mike has held senior student affairs officers roles at Pitzer College, University of Nevada, Reno, and the University of Puget Sound. He has also worked in Student Affairs at the Evergreen State College, University of Washington, Central Missouri State University and Colorado State University where he oversaw residential life among other student programs. Mike has been active in many student affairs professional associations, including NASPA ACPA, and ACUHO-I, if I listed his many accomplishments and contributions to our profession, we would not have time for the actual conversation of this episode. More than all of these things when I close my eyes, and I think about hope personified, Mike is one of the faces I see. There are many moments when I can remember running on an empty spirit tank. And Mike has somehow always been there to fill it up. And he doesn’t offer an empty positivity, his positivity is dense and rich, and it comes with depth. One of the reasons being part of this particular product podcast team was so compelling for me, is because I want all of us to remember that we’re not alone in our jobs or in our lives. And I hope when you experience this episode, you feel closer to the wisdom within you, and connected to the wisdom outside of you. With that, now, let’s get to our conversation. Mike, thank you so very much for joining me today and agreeing to be on this episode of Student Affairs now and welcome to the podcast.

Mike Segawa
It’s so good to see you.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, it’s it’s it’s a good to be community with you. And I know I talked a little bit about kind of your experience, like on paper, right, the experiences that you’ve had in higher education, but can you tell us a little bit in your own words about your journey in higher education?

Mike Segawa
Yeah. You know, I’m one of those folks that never knew this field existed. This wasn’t what I drink. drempt up when I was growing up, you know, I don’t think any of us did. You know, really started so many of my decisions were like, oh, okay, sure, why not. They weren’t well planned or thought through or anticipated. So, so for instance, the choice to go to undergraduate school, went to UC Irvine. Well, the reason I chose to go to UCI was because it was the right amount of miles from my home in San Diego. So my parents couldn’t see me every day. But I could get home if I needed to. Well, that turned out to be So fortuitous, though because when I was at UCI, I had my all time favorite job, which was being an RA. And I say that to this day. 45 years ago, I was an RA and still my favorite job. But it led me on this path. It got me on this path. So you know, as an undergraduate, I was a political science major. I didn’t know what I was going to do after that. Poli Sci majors usually went to law school or graduate school. I didn’t want to go to law school. I thought I’d go to grad school. I didn’t know what I was going to do. So, but I’d love being an RA as I said. So I asked the ResLife folks, if they heard of any kind of internship or assistantship opportunities, I’d be interested in doing that in graduate school. And they started sending me materials about grad schools and these student affairs programs, which I didn’t know existed. The one that caught my eye was at Colorado State, it was a pretty poster, colorful, you know, it was like, Colorado, why not. So I applied to CSU and Bowling Green and Student Affairs programs. But I also applied to public policy, Urban Policy, graduate programs at Berkeley and UCLA, because I thought that’s what I was going to do when I grew up as be a city planner. And I ended up taking the first offer that I got, because I wasn’t a risk taker. And the first offer came from Colorado State. So I decided to go to CSU for graduate school, be a hall director there. And you know, as I said, when I need to grow up and get a real job, I’d go back, get a city planning degree and go into that, for two years later, you know, it’s like, never had to grow up, never had to go back to get another degree. So you, and you enumerated the rest of the stops. And I’ll just say about each of those stops, they were terrific places. There was always something about each and every one of those places that I loved. And, you know, there were also things about each and every one of those places that I’m going and I could have done without this. But overall, overwhelmingly, they were great stops for me on my journey. And I will say very few if any of them were actually well planned, or well thought out. Yeah.

Mamta Accapadi
So Mike, we can we can you know, every time I speak with you, we can jump from so many different jumping points in your conversation. And when you and I connected to plan our, you know, the scheduling of this conversation, and frankly, every time we’ve spoken, you have held true to my favorite job is an RA. And that sticks with me, because I think about my favorite jobs. And it’s you know, I have my version of that story. I think many of us do, kind of our origin story, so to speak. But in our conversation, which I want to just lift up again, here, this idea what we were processing about, if you had to be an RA today, yeah. You know, as we kind of think about, you know, the trajectory, or you know, I would say maybe it’s an ebb and flow of our profession, I don’t think it’s a singular trajectory, or it’s fixed. But thinking about the juxtaposition of the RA role that you had, or the RA role that I had, and what an RA is asked to do today. What, what comes up for you, and what is that kind of I mean, it’s a bigger conversation about the nature of our profession and well being. But I would love to hear your thoughts.

Mike Segawa
Yeah. And it’s probably at the foundation, the crux of the challenges that we have as a profession today. I don’t think they’re insurmountable, but I think they are really challenging. Well, and that is, I’ve been doing a number of presentations in the last few years, last three years. So in which folks asked me to talk about, you know, how are we doing, as a profession? Know, and how do we sustain ourselves in this work? And I always started off with what I call my history slides. I put up a slide, the first slide has about six or seven topics on it, you know, they range from mental health to student financial concerns to housing. And I asked folks, well, what do you think of this list? And they look at it for a second, and they go, Yeah, I’m dealing with all those things. And the next slide is, well, that is the agenda for the Dean of men from literally 102 years ago. That was what they discussed at the first gathering of what would become NASPA. So every one of those six or seven topics is still on our list. I mean, we’re still dealing with them. Then I throw up another slide, which is very dense and text heavy, which has probably, I don’t know, 3035 items on it. And those are the things that I think are impacting us now. And Student Affairs. And I dated back to when I think at first hit our hit our radar screen. So you know, from 100 years ago to 50 years ago, 2520 10 five, but lately, those things have now been popping up on a monthly basis. Yeah, they used to be decades apart Montt. I really do believe they used to be decades apart. You know, and then they were years apart. months in the last few years, but that’s they’re coming at us so fast. And every one of those 30 or 40 items on my list doesn’t come off. The list, right? Everything that started with us 100 years ago is still with us. And it’s just been piled on top, ever since. So,

Mamta Accapadi
this is something that you shared, and I’m gonna go back to the RA, or the RA example, to continue our conversation and your thoughts. When you shared that with me. And we started talking about the RA role. Now, it also took me back to, you know, when I started at Rollins, you know, so that’s approximately 10 years ago at this point, and I remember, are, like two years into my job, the director of the Wellness Center, coming to me and saying, I think we need to start a dedicated support group for peer educators for so for our RAs and peer advisor, so, and she was like, they’re caring too much. And that just took me aback. Right. And so I think about it, then, and just kind of the increasing scope of crisis mitigation and intervention. I think that seeping through every level that I don’t know, if I would have been that equipped to do that role. Today, if I had the opportunity to be an RA, and

Mike Segawa
you’re absolutely right, it’s every level. And every year that I was a vice president, I always made sure that I had a chance to welcome the RAS on their first day of training. And literally the last five to seven years, I would share with them, yeah, I was an RA, I love the job, yada, yada, yada. But then I said, but I don’t know that I would have done it today, knowing what we have to train you in, you know, my ResLife, folks, you know, for the last four or five years, six, seven years probably complained that they didn’t have enough time to train the RAS. And training was at least 10 days. And they wanted more, right. And I understood that the things that are that our RAS or student leaders or peer leaders deal with, is huge and reflective of that list of things that have come down onto our plate as Student Affairs books. So that’s the reason that I say to our student leaders, I don’t know that I would have done it today. Because they take it on knowing what they’re going to be dealing with. I mean, they’ve lived it, you know, if they’re an RA, they’ve lived it for one, two or three years already having lived in a residence hall, you know, so it’s not like they don’t know what’s coming, or what they may be dealing with. So that regard, you know, it just adds to my love for our students. Like, they still do the stuff that I did, as a student 40 years ago, willingly, happily, you know, it’s like, they’re special people to do it.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, I find, as time has progressed, my affection for the whole art, you know, our students hope for our future at any age and stage in life. It continues, it has continued to grow. And so it’s interesting, I know that some of us, you know, and we’re human. So yeah, we experienced moments of burnout, and sometimes rejected when, you know, in certain circumstances, but overall, like, there’s this just compounding love for where you know, what we get to do and how we get to be in community alongside students for to help us all co create our best selves. And yet, you know, you and I hear the conversations right about, you know, mass accidents in the profession. And I don’t think it’s just our profession, in many professions. There’s a lot. It was happening before COVID, but certainly accelerated after the fact. Like what sits with your spirit around these conversations, because I hear them. And I also double down like, I think, for me, I still believe this is one of the best professions and ways to be in community and serve one another. It doesn’t take away the comp, complex issues, but I sit in this really messy space around both of those very real issues.

Mike Segawa
It’s there’s so much that we could unpack there. I’ll start with, I believe, even more strongly in the importance and centrality of the work that we do on our campuses with our students. I say that though, and that these are still academic institutions. So we’re the complementary piece. But I think that coming out of the pandemic, if we are truly coming out of the pandemic, there is an even greater and deeper appreciation for the work that we do from our faculty colleagues from other administrative colleagues. So I think that’s another silver lining to coming out of the last three or four years. So there is a deeper and broader appreciation for our work. But our work has gotten even more complicated, right. And so I believe real strongly in the importance and the critical nature of our work, but that puts even more burden and responsibility on us. You know, and yet Mamta, I, I love this work, I absolutely love the work. And something that I don’t want to forget to say, you know, in the context of our students. So that is now time at this point of my life and career, which is probably the retirement stage. What I remember about the career and the work or the people, and especially the students, and I’ll tell you, whenever a former student, now an alumnus reaches out, to zoom to call to visit, you know, whatever it is, just having one of those in a month sustains me. It’s the reward of the work. And, you know, as much as I love the students, I don’t know what I anticipated that that would be what would what would uplift me constantly, and it didn’t take very many of them. And so I would say to folks who are still in the midst of all of this, don’t forget, it is about our students. And yes, a small percentage of our students take up a lot of our time. And they need that time, they really, really do. But don’t forget about the other 80 or 90%, that you are still serving and are still benefiting from our work. And every now and then they will remind you of their appreciation for it. And don’t just pass it off, don’t just dismiss it, don’t just say oh, well, thank you and move on. Embrace it, you know, hold on to it, remember it? Because that’s really, for me what, what sustained me throughout the 4045 years I did the work. And what I hold on to now, I mean, I in this room, I’ve got a box that has the special cards and notes and photographs that have been given to me predominantly by students, some people like you, but those are things have all of the plaques out of all the certificates out of all the trophies. That’s the thing that’s out. Yeah,

Mamta Accapadi
I mean, certainly, when we think about lifting the human spirit, right, the that which is permanent, that ever present human spirit, and to be able to be in the work of lifting the human spirit, I just think is is. So it is truly inspiring.

Mike Segawa
What, what hasn’t changed since the time that I first entered the work and you enter the work, and now we have colleagues entering the work now is that what students remember about their undergraduate experience, especially, is predominately the work that we’re involved with? You know, they still don’t necessarily remember all the lectures or labs or performances that they may have been involved with as an undergraduate. They may remember their faculty, they may remember some of the other colleagues. But what they remember, you know, is their residential experience their student leadership experience or volunteer experience. That’s what they remember when they’re asked about, what do you remember about your undergraduate days? And it’s not only remembering those things, but it’s understanding the impact that those experiences and that learning had on who they are as a person today. Yeah, which we need even more than ever before. Yeah,

Mamta Accapadi
I hear that. And I resonate so deeply with you on those emotions and reflections. And I would love to get your guidance, right. I mean, I think many of our colleagues we enter the profession, knowing this, either being positively impacted by folks in student affairs, or maybe there’s some moments where it’s like, oh, I had a terrible experience, and I want to be part of improving it. Right. So how are you better than right? And I want to be part of the change. And so for whatever reasons, they’re all they all add value right to, to how we continue to grow and serve more fully more authentically. And in many spaces, and even for myself, there are times when I have grieved, not being able to, I think, engage in the way that I anticipated that I would be able to write because, you know, like you said, the list grows, things stay on the list, they don’t come off the list. And so what thoughts would you give to our colleagues who are listening or watching around how we sustain ourselves as our profession and as the human condition continues to evolve.

Mike Segawa
For the sustaining of ourselves and our people, is I think the most fundamental challenge for our profession. And it’s, I think you pointed out earlier in our conversation is not just our profession. I mean, this is work life right now, I think, in our society. But for Student Affairs, folks, the question of how do I sustain myself is huge. And you’re also right that this is pre pandemic conversation. For some of us. The three or four NASPAs was prior to pandemic hitting. These were literally the conversations I was having with my colleagues, and with Mentees and others. And I was asking them point blank, can you see yourself doing this work for another 20 years, you know, depending upon where you are in your career, and Mamta, there wasn’t a person in literally dozens and dozens of conversations who just said, Yep, no problem. The more typical response was a pause for a second or two. And then they would say, you know, I really haven’t said this to anyone. But I’ve thought it a lot. And I don’t know how I’m going to sustain myself, for career, 20 years, 30 years, 10 years, whatever it is. And it was really heart wrenching for them, because they said, I still love this work. I love my students. But boy, I see what goes on in this work now and they aren’t sitting yet in the big chair and SSA Oh, chair, they’re going I’ve seen what it takes to sit in that chair, and I’m not sure I want to do that. But I have a family, you know, I have bills to pay, I have loans to pay. This is what I trained to do. Yeah, know what to do about this. So I think it starts though, with a recognition of this is where I am, you know, and, and owning that. And so that’s why, at the start of the sessions I’ve been doing, I throw up the history slide. This is our reality, I mean, to say otherwise, is not reality. And in my clinical term, I’d say, you’re crazy if you didn’t feel overwhelmed, because we are overwhelmed with this. So the first thing for me is stepping back and being able to say he has what we’re doing is really hard. Accepting that that is the reality, then you can move forward with Okay, so what do I need to do about this? And it’s, and it’s not just what do I need to do about it? What am I peers need to do about this? What is my, what is my supervisors need to do about this? What does my president need to do about this? What do boards of trustees and need to do about this? It can’t be solved by a singular person. You know, although you are responsible for your own development, I get that. And so it’s stepping back at accepting the reality and then moving forward is, what can I do about it? What can I ask of the people around me do about it? What can I change? What maybe I can’t change. You know, these institutions have been here for hundreds and hundreds of years, some of them some, they’re not going to change dramatically in the ways that they do things and their DNA and their culture. And there were a number of times that I made the choice, I needed to move on. Because what was challenging me and bothering me, that wasn’t going to change at this place. And so I could keep hitting my head against that wall, or do something else. And I think, as a supervisor, as a leader, sometimes we’re not good at supporting our staffs, in opening up that thought process, you know, maybe there needs to be a change here for you, and supporting them in doing that. Because it’s not our students on this campus, it could be students at other campuses that will benefit from it. So it has also being open to, I may need to make a change, because I can’t change the things that are really at the core, bothering me about this place or these people. You know, so there’s a lot of just accepting what is but then taking control over well what can I do about it? So it it’s also very, very individualistic. Because I get that for some of us, you know, the term that has been used as replaced found no, I have been to school, you know, I have a partner who is tied very much to this place of this local for good good reasons. You know, that’s when okay, we need to get more creative as well. And I’m not sure at As a professional when it comes to our professional development, we’ve been very creative. Overall. When you think of professional development, everybody always thought of going to the national conferences, right that that was the professional development. And yet I see so many opportunities, you know, at home, literally in your community on your local campus, regionally. Now with Zoom and other technology, it doesn’t have to be you waiting to go off to NASPA, ACPA, or ACUHO-I or Noda for the National Conference. And you can tailor it, you can tailor it to what you need. So in again, in the sessions that I’ve been doing, I talked about job exchanges, job shadowing, you know that there are a lot of things that you could do that you can make a decision, and all you need is one other person to agree to do it. Right. So, so I think getting more creative about what is professional development for me. There are a lot of opportunities. The last thing I’ll say right now about it is, but you’ve got to take ownership of it. Yeah, it is not the responsibility of your vice president or your director or your associate dean, to map out and to execute your professional development, you know, that’s yours, that’s all yours. And I’ve, I’ve had too many younger colleagues for whom they didn’t take advantage of that opportunity, when they would have a supportive supervisor or super supportive vice president saying, You can do this. But they need to create. Right?

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, I mean, so much. And I think this guidance and reflection is again, I feel like it applies to many professions outside of outside of our own and, you know, I, my spirit sits a lot in, well being right in. And, of course, those of us, you know, that have been in roles like ours, I don’t care how many dimensions it is, if it’s five dimensions, eight dimensions, seven, nine domains, but, you know, you’ve all seen the wheel right. And, and I think, one of one of my wishes and hopes for Student Affairs organizations, is I think we have an opportunity to elevate the conversation. And there are many areas that do but I think we have the ability to center well being as as the center of the conversation, and connect all the different areas, right, diversity, equity, inclusion, you know, counseling, mental health, fitness, you know, all the different academic advising, spiritual development, all of those components into an overarching wellness agenda. I think our world is not well, right. So as I’m thinking about corporate conversations, or instability around the world, like, there are things happening because of lack of collective well being. And I think that in that space, right, and I feel like I just I have a feeling that we’re still in a state of evolution, higher education in general or higher education in the United States. So we’re still thinking about a delivery model. people earn degrees, they have jobs, they good, they do good things, and hopefully their social mobility, which to me, I think, still could be nuanced in a different way to say how are people elevating and considering and taking ownership of their well being, and that still involves the job that you might want and the relationships you might want, but I don’t know I

Mike Segawa
have a sense of well being, this concept of well being I’ve been really embracing and focused on for probably about the last five or six years now, again, pre pandemic. And this is on both the student level as far as what we’re, how we are interacting and work with our students, but also our own and our staff level. So such a big topic. But let me talk a little bit about the student piece, and it overlaps with our own professional development. In the last 10/15 years, so much of our conversation professionally has been about the mental health of our students, and how overwhelmed our counseling centers are, and waitlists and in not enough staffing, in terms of psychologists and psychiatrists, and how do we solve that? I can’t I mean, I’ve had a couple presidents. Point blank asked me how many psychologists need how many more do you need? And my answer was not meant to be flippant, but it was. You can give me as many as you want, and I’m probably still going to have waitlists. Okay, so that isn’t the hopeful response. But it was my pragmatic response as far as I want to set some realistic expectations with my president here. But over the last five to seven years, in a lot of the conversations I’ve been having with other VPS, with directors of counseling centers and, and other health professionals, one of the things that I’ve come to believe, is that we as a professional student affairs, we strongly swung the pendulum to the clinical perspective, that when our students were in our office crying and struggling, we had our clinical lens on, and the most natural automatic reactions, I need to get them to the Counseling Center, which may absolutely have been true and accurate, right on the mark. And I don’t want to minimize the accomplishment. I think in our society, at least in our profession, on our campuses, I think we destigmatize counseling services, which is a great thing. But I wonder, and I believe what we’ve lost in that process as student affairs folks is, where our foundation is at the core of the work that we say we do, which is student development, maturation and learning. So when that student is in front of me, and they’re struggling, is that a clinical issue, or his developmental issue. And I think as a profession for the last 10/15 years, we’ve swung pretty hard to it’s a clinical issue, and that’s where the referral is gone. And we have trained just about everyone else in the academy, similarly, especially our faculty, colleagues, we’ve trained them, here’s, here’s the reference, here’s the, you know, how you refer her the numbers or the people, you know, get them over to them. That’s all you need to do kind of thing. And faculty have learned, right, other colleagues in the Academy have learned? Yeah. And it was just few years ago that, you know, I was in a meeting with, you know, one of our care teams, we all have these care teams now, right? We meet every week, we discuss every single student that is of concern to us. This particular student that came on our radar screen had just lost a grandparent. And so the person who brought it up said, you know, they lost their grandfather, yada, yada, yada. And folks just automatically went to Okay, let’s make sure that we get them referred over the Counseling Center. And the director of the Counseling Center who is on the care team. You know, that might be okay. But it also might be okay, if a friend just took him for a walk tonight. Absolutely. And it’s like, yeah, absolutely. We need to be open to both of those possibilities. And I believe, you know, you know, the theme of this podcast about hope. My belief is, and my hope is, the vast majority of our students are not usually and rarely in need of clinical services. They’re in need of good friends, good mentors, role models, people who have, you know, the shoulder that they can lean on, and have the wisdom of yours that they don’t yet have, but will will achieve? Yeah, but as a profession, we’ve swung to the clinical lens. Yeah. And I think I would love to see a swing back a bit too. What about student development? What about student maturation? What about? This is what we do. This is what appears a four this is what a hall director is for this is what an assistant dean of students is for. And I’ll tell you that the people that I’m finding are best with swinging this pendulum back are not necessarily what I would call a classically trained student affairs, people who came through being an RA or Student Activities leader or orientation leader went off to graduate school in this and all that kind of stuff. It’s the social work colleagues that I’ve been hiring lately, the MSW is because they can pivot either way they can pivot to that’s just going to connect with their community resources. Right, or, yeah, we really do need to get them into clinical services. So let’s make that referral to but they’re not necessarily predisposed either way.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah. Well, I’m smiling as you share your example because I’ve, you know, again, sitting in care teams, I’ve had so many similar examples with the director of the counseling and wellness center offering similar, you know, challenge to all of us and I think, you know, in in our this is an example of us doing something excellent, at a certain point in time in our profession, has actually created some of the tensions or overwhelm professionally that we feel now. I would still I agree with you, I think that there is a lack of well being and humanity in society that is that I think that that is present, I think the rising social continually rising social issues. I mean, we’re, you know, that’s not manufactured, it’s very real. And the ripple effects of those things are very real in a way that I certainly didn’t have to deal with growing up. And at the same time, you know, the I was taught, I remember talking to a counseling colleague, who was seeing a student, and, you know, the student in the appointment was about anxiety, right. And so again, regular therapy, conversation about anxiety. And in this case, they were talking through an issue and the issue was that the student needed to make a phone call to address an issue with some sort of an issue. And so as they progress, like, how would you develop the coping, what what experience and what coping skills do you need to do to make the phone or the student said, I don’t talk on the phone, I don’t know how to initiate a phone call. And so that was a skill, but the anxiety around not being able to perform that skill triggered real a real anxiety response, right. So the anxiety that required the clinical support was very real. And the, the, the middle part was, we can help you make a phone call. Right. And that would have alleviated the triggering of the anxiety response. And so the counselor colleague said to me, she was like, I know, we’re not really supposed to do this. But she was like, Do you want to make the phone call here with me, like, happy to sit with you while you make the phone call. And I’ve often reflected, I mean, over the past couple of years, and I gave a talk a couple of years ago, and I said, I think we’re in a famine of intimacies, we don’t know how to have meaningful and meaningful, intimate relationships. And I’m not talking about, like, Title Nine conversations I’m talking about across the board, we don’t like when you talk about, we don’t know how to develop close friendships, or those operate with vulnerabilities. And I think that’s, again, the the magic that we could bring back into well, and

Mike Segawa
the the developmental literature that I was raised upon 40 years ago, and that we as a profession have held on to ever since. All the classical developmental literature student of in the literature, tells me what I should expect, in terms of skills and things like that from it 18 year old, right? This is what you can expect from that student as they show up on your doorstep. And I’ve insisted that for a while now, 1015 years, that’s not what I’ve been getting on my campuses, right. They are developmentally, not at the same place, as perhaps the student was 30 or 40 years ago. And this is all stereotypical, I get that. So and I’m talking about the traditional 18 year old. But that the 17/18 year olds that we are now receiving on our campuses are developmentally not as far along as the ones 20/30 or 40 years ago upon which our literature is built. Upon which if we are the classically trained student affairs, folks, we understood this is what I’m going to get. I also don’t think that we have adjusted as a profession to this reality. I’m not blaming our students, I’m not criticizing our students. I’m just saying, again, this is a reality for us. And as I’ve been offering this hypothesis, literally for probably the last 10 years Mamta, I get to have someone disagree with me, whether they’re a hall director or a vice president. They’ll say, Yeah, that’s really what I’m dealing with, you know, and,

Mamta Accapadi
and I wouldn’t even I wouldn’t even say it may not even be a notion of far along. It’s just they’re developmentally different. I find young people are far more savvy and sophisticated than I ever was, at that particular age because of, again, the things that they’ve had to carry. And think about, like, I didn’t, I mean, we did fake nuclear drills, like in our you know, like, Yeah, but like to really kind of live in the circumstances that many of our students will live through, like there is a maturity to to our students that that I think is also under appreciated. And so as well as right there things that I mean, just human lifespan has increased. So of course, developmentally, like let’s think about, like, the developmental milestones made me stretch out a bit and that’s fine. The other thing that I think about I think about graduate students a lot. And so I’ve been seeing a lot of like, Oh, we don’t you No, like, graduate, maybe not this parallel level of graduate student mental health support, or social support. And you know, we’re in a profession that really is committed to access and equity. And we, you know, we’re like, oh, let’s let’s support access and equity. Up until graduating undergraduate experiences if now somebody has

Mike “Moog” Aguilar
magically become full,

Mamta Accapadi
and knows how to navigate the complexities of, of graduate student life and well being with with all the issues, you know, that that are present. And so I think there is a continuum of opportunity that we have in our profession to come, as we have always done continue to rise to the core values and moments that our communities need today.

Mike Segawa
Well, that that’s consistent with in conversation that was I would have with my career services, folks, yes, yes. You know, and I’d be talking about this, where our students are developmentally Yeah, and all that kind of stuff. And they would say, oh, it’s not just our first year students, we see it with our seniors and recent alums, their parents are still involved in their job search, or even their job performance at their first job, because we hear this back from the employers. And again, I’m not being critical of our students and our alums. I would, I’ve been saying for a while now that our students have had to adjust in this manner, because, and you you touched on, they’ve grown up in a world in which we as parents, and they, as individuals have to be concerned about their basic safety, any place, you know, at school, at airports, wherever it is, you know, many of us, especially my colleagues and peers, we never, we didn’t have the kind of airports that we have now. We didn’t have metal detectors at elementary, middle schools or high schools. You know, you’re right, the drills that we did, I grew up in Southern California, we dove under our desks for earthquakes, right. But now active shooter drills, you know? You know, I can’t, I can’t imagine it, I don’t want to imagine that. A 12 year old is having to understand if there’s an active shooter at our school, this is what I need to do. But that is their reality. So Virginia Tech is history for them. Now. It was It wasn’t history for me. Right? Right. All these things that have impacted on our society have impacted on our students and basic health and safety have come into question in really serious ways that our students come to us, as you point out very experienced with. So how do we help them? Enjoy this experience? Yeah, you know, I, I told my staff, my recent staffs that I knew, I knew it’d be time to get out of the work, when you would bring to me either one more technology thing that we need to do, and you’re right, but I don’t want to do it. And you come to me and say, We need a new strategic plan. And I’m going, Yeah, you’re right. And I don’t want to do that either. But these these things that are in strategic plans are important as far as how our students have now changed, and how we need to meet their needs. And health and safety is at the forefront of them, unlike they were when I was an RA 45 years ago, and even 30 years ago. But when you think about the things that have happened in our society, in our world that have forced this on parents and on students, it’s no wonder I mean, this is these are for the most part, I think, healthy responses to things that have been going on in our world. I, when I was working at Evergreen, our our two kids were young, very elementary, middle school age. And I remember telling my housing staff, I’m the parent that you’re going to be complaining about. What do you mean, I said, you know, our kids are programmed from the time they wake up in the morning to the time they go to bed at night, seven days a week, all throughout the year. Mary and I have attended every practice, we rehearsal, performance competition that our kids do, do you think I’m just going to drop my kid off with you and then go away? No. And do you think that the way I parented the structure that I provided the the protections that I provided, we’re going to expect that to be different when we get into you know? So, for more To my career, I could say these things because I was one of those parents, you know, that was influencing our work in a way that I understand it. But I also want to make sure, especially recently, our students are having a good experience, the strategic plan, the last strategic plan, I was involved with creating, we had some students also on the group. And I turned to one of my student leaders in that meeting, and I said, Man, what do you do for fun? And Matt was one of my absolute best student leaders. And he paused for two seconds. And then he started giving me the litany of things that he was involved with as a student leader and his compliments. I said to the rest of the group. Do you hear what Matt’s telling you? He’s talking to you about the work that he does. He’s not talking to you being about the things that he just enjoys doing. Right? And especially the faculty members who were in the room that day, they said, Yeah, we do need to help figure out, how do we have our students thrive and enjoy this experience, not just survive it and get their degrees from our institution. But how do we help them thrive and enjoy what we all believe is a very special time of their life.

Mamta Accapadi
So in retrospect, like, you know, I mean, kind of in reflection on your very successful and meaningful and impactful career. What advice would you give to those of us listening and watching the podcast? What does that look like, in a way that’s relevant and meaningful in student affairs today?

Mike Segawa
The question of how do we help our students? Yeah, right. Yeah. A lot of it depends upon what kind of institution you’re operating in. When I was at Pitzer, my last full time stop. Pitzer is one of those elite college as part of the Claremont college Consortium. So Pomona, Harvey Mudd, Claremont, McKenna, Scripps. It’s an elite place. So those students, by definition are really elite students. How do we help those students thrive and enjoy the experience is different than the year I spent at University of Nevada, Reno as their interim dean of students. All the different institutional mission? Totally different student populations, totally different scope, and magnitude, and numbers. And so for me, it it’s it starts with what kind of institution and am I in? Who are my students? And so from a student affairs lens, though, I often think we are the moral compass for a campus and I don’t mean that in a haughty way at all. But when you think about it, where is the moral compass for our campuses, most of the time, it’s us, you know, where the students centered moral compass, which I think is good and right. I mean, these are institutions of higher learning for our students. So we’re the moral compass. And so we need to be able to keep perspective on our students, and our collective work, not just the co-curriculum, but the curriculum as well. And the overall student is learning and their experience. So we need to take perspective, we need to be able to have the ability to take a step back, not only for our own professional development that, you know, I talked about earlier in the podcast, but on behalf of our students to taking a step back means well, this is what the student has said to me or what the students have said to me. What do I hear it that? And what does that mean for the practice, for our practice, as student affairs folks, for teaching, and for other things, because we’re very well situated. We listen to students, we hear students, so we know and have the ability to not only listen but hear what they’re saying to us. And then interpret that advocate for that with other parts of the campus community. I mean, that’s always been a big part of our role, and I think it’s even more important now. And I do think, you know, again, the hope theme, there is more appreciation for what we bring. And every campus in this country right now trying to figure out how do we help our students reengage post pandemic? How do we help them get back to real Good solid student learning, community building and all those kinds of things. It’s not the faculty are going to answer that question. They are turning to Student Affairs people for answers to those questions.

Mamta Accapadi
Well, I think, you know, as I hear you reflect, and, you know, you and I, moral compass, so very much resonates with me and, frankly, just compass. I, you know, because I think if we could be, you know, you know, our, my mentor, mutual colleague of yours, Larry Roper has often said, right, that, that we’re conveners of high stakes conversations, I think is, as I’ve continued to be in our career, I find that being present with people has a greater impact than the things that I think I need to do. So the time and it looks different, and feels different in each of the roles that we’re in. And all of those roles matter. Right. So back to our favorite jobs of being an RA, or RA being encouraged to have a program or an experience where residents maybe invite their favorite faculty member to a gathering then generates empathy with faculty members of a modern day student experience outside of the classroom, if if a faculty member may never have access to that, or at Rollins, and and even a pen in our division meetings, like at Rollins for sure, I would say bring a friend like, or we say, hey, athletics, come join us or advancement come join us. And all of a sudden, it’s a bigger conversation. Much like the and we’re skilled at it. So if we can do the crisis response folders with phone numbers and all this stuff, and we saw how well everyone learned, then I think we could do the same around hope.

Mike Segawa
You know, we would what you just said reminded me, there are so many allies and colleagues on our campuses. Yeah, we don’t think about so you just talked about advancement, athletics, you know, what I thought about immediately with librarians? Oh, yes. You know, it’s like, nobody ever taught me that. It was only until I got into conversations and meetings in which there were some, you know, our head librarian or director libraries, or who met or some of their librarians. And it was like, we speak the same language. Absolutely. And, and when they are focused on how do we help students navigate this information world? Who was like, wait a minute, these are conversations we’ve been having about? How do we help our students navigate this kind of thing? It’s like, no one ever told me that I had this kind of colleague and this kind of ally. In our community, you know, and you ticked off a couple more athletics, you know, advancement. Sometimes these people just need to be reminded, wait a minute, right? We’re very similar to you. We actually have very similar agendas, and we can help each other in these things. And I recognize sometimes athletics is part of our portfolio. But I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had conversations with advancement colleagues about oh, wait a minute, we’re on the same page here. Yeah. You want us to graduate Happy, Healthy Students? Because that makes them better alumni. Right? Yeah.

Mamta Accapadi
And I think, you know, I think, actually some of the favorite parts of my job and, and I am somebody who can get drawn into and it’s not again, understandable, drawn into the crisis management, because that’s if you need to react and respond. And that’s what’s asked of you. Absolutely. That has to take precedent. However, I find that when I have made time, so when I have made time to talk to a finance organization that continually processes all the pizza order invoices, like why do you need so much pizza and what’s going on, they’re like, you know, so wasteful, like, we’re probably, and I’m able to say, remember your favorite moment. And now let me tell you a story about the student. And now let’s talk about the role of the pizza and because you process those invoices, we get to do what we do. And it changes the affection even by which people process that invoices for pizza. Right. And I think I think we have the ability to be healers of the ecosystem. Yeah. And so I like and I sit with you and you’ve been somebody who has been a healer to me. And so I wonder what it looks like. Like how you know, in this next season of our profession, how we can activate more that part of who we are.

Mike Segawa
You know, I come back to first of all there has to be self acknowledgement of where I’m sitting. What am I feeling? What am I experiencing, and accepting that as this is my reality. And there’s there are good, good reasons for it. One of the things I, perhaps the thing I loved most about being in this kind of work, it didn’t matter what campus I was on, no matter how small or big, I was surrounded by people that I love being surrounded by. Most of the time, they were my staff, they were other student affairs, folks. But you know, as we just talked about, some of my favorite colleagues, were the chief of staff to the president, or the librarian, more of the director of Campus Safety or athletics, because we would discover, we have the same orientation, we have the same core values, and to be surrounded by those kinds of folks, I, I became purposeful about that, to surround myself by the people who gave me energy who I felt like had the, our students at the core of what they did, yeah. But this could apply to any work that you do, surrounding yourself with the people who give you energy. And we have, I have found, we have more choices about that than we sometimes believe we have, you know, going well, I’m stuck in an organizational chart. And so I have to report this way. And these are the people to my side and below. That’s my world. It’s like, oh, man, if you see the org chart as your world, you missed out on a lot of fun. And I was very, very purposeful. When I would arrive at a campus as a brand new person. I really wanted to meet people who weren’t on my organization chart. That could be fact that a lot of times it was faculty colleagues. Sometimes it was people not on the campus, they were in the community. Sometimes they were other colleagues on another campus that was five miles down the road. But that’s what I mean. Also, when I say creativity, yeah, outside of literally the organizational boxes on an org chart. Yeah. Reaching out to meet these people. And creating that connection. Some of my favorite folks at Pitzer, when I was there were our campus, close your campus ministers that weren’t responsible to me, amazed, it was like, wait a minute, again, people who we have fundamentally the same values about the student centeredness of this. It’s like, but they weren’t on my org chart, you know, they weren’t part of, I’m responsible for you or whatever. So you have to get creative. And that’s the beauty of being on a college campus, you can surround yourself by these kinds of folks. And it always amazed me, because people would be amazed by how did you meet that person? How did you become a colleague of that person? How did you get access to them? Like I asked to meet? Right? Right. And I asked that me more than one time, perhaps. So for me, that’s a big part of it is almost all of us got into this work. Because we love being on a college campus. We love the energy it brings, we love the values it reflects, we love the beauty of the physical beauty of the place. Like if you think about it the most. We’re surrounded by people who are really smart. Almost all of them have really good strong values about why they are there, what our purpose is. And they’re fun. They kept it fun people. You’re right, we have crises. And when we have the crises, usually we get it, you know, so I know that. But there’s a lot of other time to in which we are not in crisis, that there are opportunities to meet these folks. And me as an introvert, that could be hard. Sometimes I had to push myself, especially when I was the new person. And it would have been much easier for me to say, you know, I think I’ll just stay home tonight. And no, go into that social or going to that invitation that I had been offered. Maybe I need to push myself a little bit too. Yeah.

Mamta Accapadi
Mike, I could talk to you for days. And thank you just for sharing your perspective and for you know, challenging us to think about how we can rise to our best selves and in this profession, that doesn’t mean it’s easy, but that we can that there is beauty among all of who we are.

Mike Segawa
Well recognized Mamta that and I acknowledged this in the last five or seven years of my professional journey. I would say to people, I acknowledged I can say some of these things, because I’m not looking for another job. I’m not necessarily looking to impress anybody you know, this is not an interview setting. And so there are some things that I could talk about in terms of sacred cows of our profession that is like, Oh, if you don’t like it, that’s absolutely fine. You know, I love the conversation. But I recognize the privilege that I also have now at this point in the journey that I can say these things and not worry about am I going to get paid? You know, where’s my next meal gonna come from? Well, I have employment. Those are very real things for our folks as they struggle, absolutely. Their own journey, and how do they sustain themselves? I want to recognize it. Yeah. A lot of what I said today, I recognize they necessarily couldn’t say publicly.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, that’s it, and and how refreshing that you’re able to say it for for us to reflect react, respond, agree, disagree to in our own personal spaces. And, you know, if there’s resonance or agreement that that at least we know that there’s a voice, right, that, that that, that we’re that our that our perspectives are not out of the blue, right, that there’s, yeah,

Mike Segawa
well, and before we go, and this would be a whole other podcast, which I would also, though, be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that a big part of what is impacting our work now, and has historically, are issues about social justice, equity and inclusion. And that a lot of what you and I have talked about in this podcast, equity and social justice are interwoven into those. And figuring out how we help and equip ourselves to be better facilitators, and advocates and listeners, on that is hugely important. Because that work, intertwined with our work and Student Affairs is more difficult than it’s ever, ever has been. I see it as an evolution or to work with folks like you and Larry and others have have done in your careers around this have enabled us to get to this point with those topics. But it’s a hard place to be the hard, hard place to be. And we see that playing out for our students on our campuses. And we see it playing out in our communities in sometimes tragic ways. And so that’s such critically important work. And I know that weighs heavily in our folks. And I know so many of our people coming into this profession, especially recently, this is at the forefront of what they absolutely create its own set of stressors and questions about sustainability, and health and safety that that’s a whole other podcast two or three. But yeah, absolutely. I’d remiss if I didn’t say, this is a huge part of what we have to deal with as a profession.

Mamta Accapadi
I’m so grateful that you mentioned that. Yeah, I mean, of course, as we have the opportunity to steward critical conversations around the human condition, you know, making sure that the multitudes of human conditions are considered and held sacred, you know, and not not just singular limited narratives. And of course, that means more more self work, more more shifting and challenging of systems. And while we’re trying to figure that out ourselves, right? So your amplification of that, it just, it means so much to me, personally, it’s

Mike Segawa
that self work, should never stop, it never stops. If you’re going to be an effective practitioner, and a wonderful human being it will never stop. You know, there were issues around this example, equity, inclusion and diversity that literally to my last day of full time work, I was learning about it. And it’s like, wow, I had not thought of that, you know?

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah. What a powerful phrase to be able to say in practice. I have not thought about that. I have not thought about that. Yeah. Yeah, I’m committed to doing myself work. And

Mike Segawa
last, last thought I’ll leave you ever been on the podcast is, again, yet, you know, this is about hope, not how do we sustain ourselves. And that’s a lot of them. The workshops that I’ve been doing the last few years with colleagues, and I leave them with with this one, and that is, you all are better prepared for this work than I ever was at the same point in my career. I really, truly believe that. Now, that’s because people like you and me and our peers. We’ve seen too, that we have provided those opportunities more than were provided 100 years ago, or 50 years ago or 30 years ago. So our colleagues who are practicing now, they have more opportunities for this kind of professional development in individual ways and collective ways. They And you and I ever had before, again at the same point in our careers, which means I believe they are better equipped for the work than I ever was. And they are going to need every ounce of that in order to do this work and for them for themselves to thrive and survive in this work, which I believe they will do. Yes.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, I believe in our colleagues in our profession too. So, Mike, I can’t there are no words about adequately Thank you. So I will just leave you with a simple thank you for your time and spirit wisdom today. And just for a brief moment, I do want to again, take the time to offer thanks to our sponsors stylus and Symplicity, we really appreciate your support. stylus is proud to be a sponsor for Student Affairs now podcast. Please take a moment to browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at stylus pub.com. You can use promo code sa now for 30% of all books plus free shipping. You can also find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn and Twitter at stylists pub. Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution. Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and well being student success and accessibility services. To learn more, visit symplicity.com or connect with symplicity on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. And much love and gratitude to our our producer for the podcast. Natalie Ambrosey, who does all of the behind the scenes work to make us look good and sound good. Friends if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at Student Affairs now.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out our archives. Finally again, I’m Mamta Accapadi much love and gratitude to everyone who is watching and listening. Make it a beautiful week that honors your soul spirit and ancestral wisdom. Thank you all.

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