Jen Lombardo: So we’re socialized to think that success and influence and happiness and wealth, like, solely come w- from climbing that career ladder, and we get some of those messages, as Gudrun had mentioned, in our graduate school. But we also see so much hustle culture in social media. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we live in a capitalist society which values productivity and efficiency and wealth and growth and climbing that upwardly mobile ladder. And that is one narrative of success, and I think that that’s helpful to know, but that’s not the only narrative of, of success. It’s a very restrictive narrative of success, and it’s not at all personalized to what is appropriate for you. Um, and so I think it’s just really important that we’re able to talk about what is right for each of us because we’re going to be happier in our jobs, and we’re going to be more fulfilled and be able to give more of ourselves and achieve that, quote, career success that we are hoping for if it’s more individualized to what we want.

Heather Shea: Not recording. Okay. And our awesome producer will help make this look, look and sound great. Hi, Nat. All right Welcome to Student Affairs NOW, the online learning community for student affairs educators. I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today on the podcast, we’re exploring an assumption that has shaped student affairs for decades, that success always means moving up the organizational ladder to a dean of students or a vice presidency.

We will challenge that narrative and discuss why choosing a mid-level career, it can be intentional, meaningful, and deeply impactful decision, not simply a stop along the way. This conversation actually grew out of a panel session at the ACPA annual convention last spring where I was honored to participate as someone who also has intentionally and happily built a career as a mid-level professional.

It also builds on ongoing conversation within the ACPA’s mid-level community of practice. And so to deepen this conversation, we are also being joined by a faculty member whose current research examines the experiences, motivations, and career pathways of mid-level student affairs professions. So I’ll introduce our panel in just a moment.

But first, Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in, alongside, or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com.

Today’s episode is sponsored by the Evolve Institute for Higher Education Leadership. Evolve offers four leadership coaching journeys designed to expand capacity and build capabilities, empowering courageous leadership to transform institutions and reimagine the future of higher education. As I mentioned, I am your host for today’s episode, Heather Shea.

My pronouns are she, her, and hers, and I am broadcasting from the ancestral, traditional, and contemporary lands of the Anishinaabe, the Three Fires Confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi peoples, otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University, where I work. So I’m excited to introduce our guests today.

Joining me are five amazing individuals, so I’m gonna go down the list and then we’ll do a little bit deeper introduction. So first Dan Cantillo. Hi, Dan. Welcome. Good

Jen Lombardo: morning.

Heather Shea: Dan is the manager of academic planning and student affairs at Toronto Metropolitan University. He’s also chair-elect of ACPA’s mid-level community of practice and is a longtime higher ed pr- professional with more than 15 years of experience in Canadian universities.

Welcome. I’m excited to have you here today, Dan. Also joining us is Jason Mockford. Hi, Jason.

Jason Mockford: Hi there

Heather Shea: Jason is the senior director of leadership and service at Cal Polytechnic State University, where he leads leadership development initiatives across two campuses and teaches in the higher ed counseling and student affairs graduate program.

Jen Lombardo. Welcome, Jen.

Jen Lombardo: Hi. Good afternoon.

Heather Shea: Is the senior associate dean of students at the Harris School of Public Policy at the University of Chicago, where she oversees academic advising and student support services after beginning her career in K-12 education and college access. Excited to have your voice here today.

Next joining us is Hannah Aksamit, the Assistant Director for Education at the Women’s Center at the University of California San Diego, where she advances gender equity, wellness, and leadership development through teaching, training, and campus-wide initiatives.

And finally, Dr. Gudrun Nyunt is Associate Professor of Higher Education at Northern Illinois University, a Senior Presidential Advisor for ACPA, and a researcher whose work examines career pathways and the experiences of mid-level professionals in higher education. Welcome, Gudrun. Welcome back, I should say.

Gudrun’s been on a couple of times. She has. And also has been a host. So excited to have you here. Yeah. All right. Beyond the brief bios that I just read, I’d love to hear if there’s anything else you’d like our listeners to know about you, and then I’d love to hear each of your thoughts. If somebody asked you why this conversation about mid-level careers matters, what would you say?

And Gudrun, I’m gonna start with you.

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah. So a, a couple things about me, right? I started working in student affairs as a full-time professional in residence life, and so I worked in residence life for seven years at three different institution and never really broke into the mid-level, right? I stayed in hall director positions.

My second and third job search, I was definitely looking for mid-level and had a hard time breaking into that. So in some ways I think all research is me search, right? But there’s also that personal interest of I didn’t make it to that level but I’m curious about what those experiences are like.

The other piece why I’ve been increasingly interested in this is that when we think about grad prep programs and what we do to prepare students, I think there’s a lot of career myths that we perpetuate to say, “This is what your career should look like,” or, “This is how you should approach it and what you should do,” that doesn’t actually serve people in the field and doesn’t serve our field.

And so my research has really been driven out of that need to figure out, how do I better prep my students for careers in this field when we know they don’t look the way we often tell them, right? It’s not like you go in, you start entry level, you move up to mid-level, this fantastic smooth transition, right?

And then you continue to move up, and suddenly all of you are gonna be vice presidents of student affairs. And so really interested in how do we better prep grad students for what that career looks like, and how do we support, you know- Our professionals through this. So one of my first studies diving into career pathways specifically for student affairs, I used to look more at faculty, but now looking at student affairs was on departure of student affairs professionals right after the- cOVID pandemic. And interestingly, I think partially ’cause of the networks that I have, right? But it was mostly mid and senior level professionals that talked to me. And so the typical things we hear about it’s hard to move up. There’s not enough pay. That really wasn’t a thing for mid-level and senior level.

And so it really got me thinking about what are these things that push folks out of the field at higher levels. And so I think this conne- this conversation really connects to that, right? Because it helps us really think about how do we support folks in the mid-level if they wanna move up or if they don’t, right?

And how do we keep people in the field long-term?

Heather Shea: Awesome. Thank you, Gudrun. I’m excited to hear more about your research. Hannah, how about you?

Hannah Aksamit: Yeah, absolutely. So similar to Gudrun, we actually were just having this conversation yesterday. I also had gotten my start in housing and residence life, lived on a college campus for almost a decade, and just feeling this overwhelming burnout doing that work.

Doing more, what felt like more and more work. Being more experienced with knowing how to do certain jobs, and then doing that work during the pandemic. And seeing folks like our assistant directors leave the positions, and doing that work without the title, without the pay because we just saw this mass exodus of folks.

And so while it was framed as this opportunity to get exposure, to be able to do things that I probably would not have 10-plus years into my career, got to do that very o- early on as a new professional. It’s okay, great I can talk about these experiences. And I would say those experiences did help me get the assistant director title that I have now.

But the titling is always hard. It looks different for every functional area. But I think that really informed for me of, oh, okay, while those assistant director official positions were opened, I never formally got those roles. I didn’t have the full-time supervision of career staff. So I could talk about chairing committees or I could say, “Okay, I’ve trained these grad students,” or, “I’ve done this work with career f- staff in the front desk capacity,” but still really missing, okay, what does full-time career staff supervision look like and how is that different than stu- student staff that I had supervised for many years.

So I would say definitely still really invested in this. The career pathways conversation of mid-level really is this ether. We talk about that all the time on the directorate is sometimes it’s title, sometimes it’s years, sometimes it’s like the type of work that you’re doing. And we exist in this space for so much of our career, for those of us that choose to stay in the field.

And I knew that I’m like, okay, I feel really called to do this work. I got my master’s degree in this for a reason. Housing isn’t it for me anymore. And being able to do gender equity work and having the support system that I do at the institution that I’m at has been just such a gift and really showed me of, oh, this is what work-life blend looks like, and there really is an opportunity- to do this work in the field and not be burnt out. And I also get to just talk about burnout as part of my job. So I definitely come at all of my conversations from the lens of well-being. I’ll definitely reference that in some of your other questions. But yeah, that it made me optimistic that, okay, there, there is hope for us that, that continue to choose to stay.

And I’ve seen that even role modeled by some of my colleagues on this call of that work-life blend, like it is possible, and that gives me, again, a lot of hope.

Heather Shea: Awesome. Thanks, Hannah. Agreed. It is definitely hopeful. Jason, how about you?

Jason Mockford: Yeah. So I’ve been thinking a lot about how we spend a lot of time letting other people tell us what success is supposed to look like, whether that’s the org chart or the structure or the ladder or our parents.

And for me, it was early on in my career was being part of a union and having the union tell me, “These are the steps you need to take to advance.” And that was really helpful advice, but in the context of health, especially mental health, it can be really freeing to synthesize that, define that for ourselves, and understand that our definitions of what success might be could vary wildly from those that are next to us.

And when you view it from the traditional student affairs career path that you have to move up if to move up, you have to move out understanding that there could be a lot of space to move and grow at the level you’re at at the location you’re at. And as an employee, it’s important for me to understand this ’cause it helps me feel inspired to think creatively about my work and what possibilities there are in the work that I am doing.

And then as a manager, it’s also important for me to understand this because it also adds depth to my advocacy for my team and the support for my team and adds some tools to my kit

Heather Shea: I love that. That’s great. Yeah, mid-level supervising mid-level, right? Or mid-level supervising entry-level, I think that’s also key.

We’ll talk a little bit more about that. Dan, how about you?

Dan Cantiller: Yeah. So I think being part of the ACPA mid-level community of practice for the past couple of years, we’ve had some really great conversations, and I’m thinking back to the, the two most recent mid-level experience panels that we’ve had at convention where there was a discussion about should I stay or should I go, in terms of working within student affairs, and now this conversation around mid-level as a final destination.

I think it’s a lot of folks who are have been working in student affairs for a while. These are kind of questions and conversations that we can have now that we maybe bring a different energy to than we were when we were earlier in our career. And I can relate to maybe that sense of energy or maybe impatience and wanting to really move up quickly or, prove myself as a newer professional, especially when I first started working and it was in a bit more of a remote area.

So I felt like I needed to work harder to kind of network or demonstrate my competency or what I could do in, in different institutions or spaces. And so I think now, having been working in the field for several years I think when we think about our career trajectory or or even examine how far we’ve come, we can bring a different level of discernment in terms of what do we value in terms of quality of life?

What do we want to contribute? What do we want to accomplish, right? And who informs our thoughts around what success looks like. I’ve also had the experience where I’ve been at my current institution for- more than 10 years and have moved into several different kinds of positions, and these might be considered lateral, like moving moving up, moving around, right?

And maybe maybe my, my career or employment journey might be confusing to some people, right?

Or being… Maybe there would be questions about why did you change or at what frequency? And I think a, a big thing that I wanna convey in our conversation today is that, your circumstances, your story, right?

And it doesn’t have to be measured by what other people say. And really, I think as long as you are owning and understand sort of your path and your decisions that’s what’s most important

Heather Shea: Awesome. Thanks, Dan. Jen, why does this conversation matter to you?

Jen Lombardo: Yeah I think it matters to me for a number of reasons, but I think it’s really important because it underlines a big social construct that affects all of us.

So we’re socialized to think that success and influence and happiness and wealth solely come w- from climbing that career ladder, and we get some of those messages, as Gudrun had mentioned, in our graduate school. But we also see so much hustle culture in social media. And we live in a capitalist society which values productivity and efficiency and wealth and growth and climbing that upwardly mobile ladder.

And that is one narrative of success, and I think that’s helpful to know, but that’s not the only narrative of success. It’s a very restrictive narrative of success, and it’s not at all personalized to what is appropriate for you. And so I think it’s just really important that we’re able to talk about what is right for each of us because we’re going to be happier in our jobs, and we’re going to be more fulfilled and be able to give more of ourselves and achieve that, quote, career success that we are hoping for if it’s more individualized to what we want.

Heather Shea: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, so much of what you all shared really resonates with my own experience. And the context in which we do the work might look differently, but then I feel like I have, in some ways, more power because I have institutional knowledge and I’ve w- moved around the campus.

So Jen, I’m gonna take this next question where you left off, and love to hear your thoughts on what do mid-level roles make possible that senior leadership often cannot?

Jen Lombardo: Yeah, I think we’re positioned as connectors, and that gives us a lot of influence to really implement high-level initiatives.

So senior leaders are often making the strategic plans, but we’re able to tailor them to what it looks like on the ground for the people that we’re working with from the student perspective. And then as we’re communicating with our staff, as we’re communicating with students, we’re also getting really valuable feedback and concerns and etcetera that we can continue to pass up the chain.

And so I think that is something that is really important, and I think it’s something that’s really unique to being in the mid-level.

Heather Shea: Awesome. Jason, what would you add here?

Jason Mockford: And similarly, like mid-level folks are the people that get to figure out how something’s gonna happen. The senior leader often has, initiatives and things that we’re trying to accomplish, or sometimes we’re providing some of those ideas and feedback up and they’re being synthesized with other bigger picture things.

But we get a lot of flexibility when it comes to what does that– how do we tailor that to the students that we get to work with every single day? H-how does that land for a entry-level staff, for example, who value certain aspects of their work because they’re seeing great return from their students.

It makes the student feel good, it makes them feel good. And we can, approach that as creatively as we can. So we really sit between these huge goals and the student experience, and there’s a lot of space to be creative, to provide some ownership, empowering the people around us, to build partnerships with other people on campus to make, the experience, I think, a little bit more dynamic and a little bit more impactful

Heather Shea: I love that.

Dan, I’m gonna love for you to pick up on that thread, but then I’m also curious about how you knew that you’ve reached a role that fit your strengths, values, and life. We could unpack this probably for days and talking about what is enough, right? Whether it’s enough prestige or money or w- enough of a title or whatever the thing is, but what does it feel to know that you’ve reached that, and how do you develop that kind of level of job satisfaction?

Dan Cantiller: Yeah. I think with with more and more experience we’re experts in our own lives, right? So I think we we grow and we get to know ourselves through trial and error, through learning from our mistakes. Sometimes having experiences where we’re like, “I thought this was gonna be some way,” or, “This is something that I really wanted.”

And then maybe being surprised and then being like, “Okay, but I wouldn’t have known that had I not tried this.” So it’s not necessarily a failed effort, but an- reframing it as further learning. So I think for me, with considering as I alluded to, maybe a couple of role changes or, considering and maybe accepting new opportunities I’ve really thought about what is the im- what does impact look like- and what is learning. What is the impact? What is the potential that I potential impact that I can have in this role, or who can I affect? Like, how can I improve or support? And then learning as well. Is there more? Is there space for me to grow into this role already with the knowledge or competency that I have?

As much as I wanna be like, “I can do all this. Pick me,” but also what more could I actually learn from that opportunity? And so I think these are two maybe guideposts when like discerning your career or potential new direction is if you feel you’re at a point or you’ve been in a role where you feel like maybe you’re towards the end of what you can contribute or maybe the end of being able to contribute new ideas or enhancements, right?

And feeling happy and fulfilled with that. It may be a, an opportunity or a suggestion to consider, should I be looking at something new? Maybe something related, something available around. And this doesn’t necessarily always have to be a change of role. This might also be a recognition of I have a different capacity or I have my…

I’m grounded in what I do but I’m looking for something more to feel like I am making a contribution, and that could be through volunteer service, through mentorship, other pieces as well. I think really quickly to tie up this part too about the learning piece is this might be a polite way of saying recognizing that you’re getting bored with what you’re doing or you’re ready-

for the next challenge. Yeah. And and not to, speak ill of previous roles that I was in, but you’ll get a sense too of, I feel like I can and I want to do more or different things. And so I think those are those are helpful gut check indicators, right? Of maybe this isn’t enough anymore, or maybe I wo- I wanna consider other possibilities of where I s- where I see myself.

Heather Shea: Nice. I love that. Jen, anyone else wanna jump in?

Jen Lombardo: Oh man, you ask like what is enough- … and I feel like that’s just something that you gotta bring to your therapist and ask, “What is enough?” It’s like what is enough in your role? What is enough in your life? And it’s a, it- Yeah … there’s a, a lot to unpack in what is enough.

But I do think it’s worth thinking about, trying to define for yourself what is enough in the season of life that you’re in- … because it absolutely shifts over time. I absolutely got burned out in my K12 career, and when I came back to higher education I was looking to create some more boundaries and create more work-life balance.

And after I had my son I was tr- needed to and wanted to also create even more boundaries to have a little bit more work-life balance around that. And so it can shift over time. I’ve been lucky that I haven’t had to search for a job in almost a decade, which is really lovely, but in my last job search experience I really tried to center it not on a job title, but on some of these qualities and priorities that I was looking for.

So I’m somebody who’s really steeped in student success. I needed a role that felt like it was working towards student success. I feel like I need to be able to see the impact that I’m making- … whether that’s working one-on-one with students or seeing the impact of influence on programs.

And then I was searching for some of that work-life balance, and I was being really intentional during my interview process of trying to determine do I think I can get these things in the certain roles that I’m s- targeting. And then once I landed the job at the Harris School I was reassessing at, three months or six months or a year and trying to say, “Okay, I thought I was going to get those things here.

Is that true?” And I’m lucky that it has panned out, and I’ve been working on the same team for nine years now. It’s been good for me. Yeah. But it’s a moving target. We’re all changing as Dan had mentioned. We’re all learning and we’re all growing, and so it’s why it’s good to go to a therapist and figure out what’s enough for right now.

Heather Shea: I when I think about my own trajectory, and I think I’ve talked about this, I talked about it on the panel for sure moving from a directorship in one division to a directorship in a different division was for me yes, it might have, again like you said, looked like a lateral move, but it’s like the type of work that I’m doing is very different in this different position and role.

In fact, I moved from student affairs to the Office of the Provost. And and in some ways I’m like, “Whoa, this is the other…” We always hear the academic affairs versus student affairs kind of divide. I’m like, we are all here doing this work, but now I know firsthand how critical our partnerships are.

So yeah, what i- what is enough? And I remember the vice provost telling me that when he was interviewing me. He’s like, “I don’t see this as lateral. I see this as just different.” All right. Gudrun, I’d love to hear a little bit more from your research, right? … And I think one of the things that I’m hearing from everybody who’s spoken so far is that sometimes career decisions are influenced by more than just ambition, right?

More than just that seeking the next level or rung on the ladder. Can you talk a little bit about what the research tells us about how family, caregiving, wellbeing, identity and personal values and, as Jen said, how those change over time might shape our desire or decision to remain in mid-level roles?

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah, for sure. So I think part of it in general, I think career decisions are much more complex than we really think about, right? It’s often not just a decision about a career. It’s a decision about your life and the kind of life you wanna live. And I think in some ways we’ve seen a shift as a society the, after the COVID-19 pandemic, or really with the pandemic, where folks have said, “I don’t wanna just do whatever it takes to, to advance at work,” right?

And we… That existed before that but I think there was that shift where it just became much more talked about, it became much more normalized to say, “Maybe I am taking a step back because I wanna focus on family, because I wanna focus on relationships,” right? I think there’s also some things that are maybe more unique to our field, where it’s we talk a lot about that if you wanna move up, sometimes that opportunity presents itself at your institution, and that’s great.

And if there are folks in those senior level roles who are not that much older than you, they’re not gonna leave, right? And so then a move up also means completely uprooting your family, moving somewhere else, and that’s a huge decisions, right? And that’s not just a you decision, that’s often a decision with your partners, if you have children, right?

That’s a decision about where, do you wanna uproot your children, where they’re at in their education. And so I think what we’re seeing is that folks are thinking much more holistically around career decisions than just what’s good for my career. And that we have, which I think is a good thing that we’ve gotten to a point where it’s been more normalized to say, “I am making this choice for my family,” or, “I’m making this choice for my partner.”

Or my own wellbeing that I just, this is not what I wanna do. I think the other piece that really stood out to me from some of the stories I heard from participants is that a lot of us get into this field because we love students, we care about students- … we wanna work with students.

And the more you move up, the less you get of that, right? And I actually- … wonder if we would see more folks staying at entry level positions if those were paid better and maybe allowed for a little bit better work-life blend, work-life balance, whatever that looks like. But I think there is that as you move up, you lose that connection to students.

And so I think folks are also making those decisions ’cause they’re saying, “This is not why I got into the field,” right? “I don’t wanna be dealing with politics.” And I think that particularly right now in the current context feels so challenging, right? With our sociopolitical climate, we are like, “The higher I climb, the more I’m gonna be impacted by all these things.

And of course, we’re all impacted by it, but now I’m the one who needs to figure out what do we do when there’s really no good solution,” right? “And I know that what I’m doing might harm some of my students, but might help the institution as a whole.” And so I think we’re seeing that with folks saying, “That’s not why I got into the field,” right?

“I wanna support students. I wanna create welcoming campus environments.” And at the mid-level, you have a smaller level of influence, but you have more of that cr- direct connection, right? And so I think there’s also that disconnect sometimes of senior level roles and some of the things that they’re dealing with that really aren’t why people were interested in the field to begin with.

Heather Shea: That is great. Reactions, thoughts to what Gudrun just shared?

Hannah Aksamit: I used to wanna be an institution president. I remember coming into grad school like I… And any- anyone from my cohort could tell you, they’re like, “Hannah wants to be a president at a college.” And then we got to meet a few different institution presidents, and very quickly I was like, “Oh, I have no desire to do that work anymore.”

Maybe- Yeah … a dean, dean of students one day. We’ll see. And I was saying the more and more I have met folks in other functional areas, I’ve met other senior leaders across institutions, I’m like, “Ooh, I don’t. I really don’t know.” I do wanna have a family. I do see the scrutiny that, that folks are under and the ways that they have to show up, and at least for the way that I observe of I feel like I wouldn’t be compromising my values and morals to be able to do that kind of work.

And I’m like, “I’m not interested in navigating politics in that way.” I always joke that if my mouth doesn’t tell you, my face will. I- You, you will be able to read how I am feeling about that thing. And I’m like, that is not gonna go well in some of those spaces. Or maybe that’s exactly what needs to happen in that space.

So I, yeah, so it definitely was a, a switch that, that flipped for me in realizing if I’m not interested in doing that work anymore.

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah. And I think sometimes it’s not that mid-level professionals don’t work a lot and have extra hours, right? But I feel like we have this huge issue of burnout at the entry level where it really often feels unsustainable, and it is exacerbated by the low pay in those positions, so folks also have side hustles and doing other things just to make ends meet.

And some of that is still true for the mid-level, but it feels like you have a little bit more flexibility and a chance to control what you’re doing. But then when you get really high up into senior level, like when we see some of our vice presidents, now there’s these new expectations of show up at the football game, go to the student org event, right?

Be at all these things. And so thinking back to the study I did on folks who left the field one of my participants was she had moved through the ranks really quickly and I had known her early on in her career and I was like, “She’s gonna be an amazing vPSA one day,” right? It wa- it was similar to Hannah’s story where everyone in grad school knew “She’s gonna do that.

She’s gonna be amazing at it.” And then she left the field, right? And part of it was she left the field because it just, the closer she got, she was in, in kind of an associate VP role and was really being mentored to become the next VP of her institution ’cause that person was retiring. And the more she thought about it, she was like, “I, I don’t wanna do that.

I can’t do that,” right? She had little children, where she was like, “I… Then either my choice is take them to the event, whichever one it is that I have to show up with me, or not see my children,” right? And yeah, it’s like fun to go to a football game once for kids, right? But that’s not what you wanna be doing every weekend.

And when the spotlight is on you ’cause your mom is in some fancy position. So she was like, “That’s not the life that I wanna have,” right? And it was also that crushing sense of like there’s all this responsibility that I have once I’m at that role, and how do I navigate that and keep myself emotionally well, right?

W- how do I not take that home and then it’s gonna impact my family and I’m gonna be thinking about this decision that I made that really impacts a student’s life while we’re having dinner or I’m trying to play with my kids? And so it really came down to like this is not sustainable for a lot of people.

And so I think it, I think there’s on one hand I think what the research tells us, we need to figure out how to support folks in staying at the mid-level and saying it is okay and normalizing that. But I also think we really need to look at our senior-level positions to say, is this what we want them to be like or do we need to shift how we imagine senior-level positions to make them of more interest to folks and make them more- more sustainable for people to be in those positions and still have a life and still do well and still, and still be able to show up as their authentic selves.

Heather Shea: I want to pick up on this theme of hustle culture. And I don’t mean side hustles, right? But really about this idea of ambition and how that, we’re all hustling to get ahead, but what is the thing that we are trying to aim for?

Sometimes we don’t even know. Jason, maybe you can start talking about this idea. Like, where does this show up? What does it cost to have that be a part of our profession? What does it cost individuals, and I guess, what does it cost the field?

Jason Mockford: Yeah, I, when I, when you say hustle culture, my immediate thought is that this is how it all started for me, that I was a probably an overachieving grad student, wanted to do great work, et cetera.

And then I got hired, and it felt like getting launched out of a human cannon. And I didn’t stop running really for a long time. And I was trying to do everything. I was trying to make the best impression as the new guy. I was, some of that perfectionism was in play for sure.

I never saw an opportunity that I would never say no to, right? Everything was, “Yes, I’ll t- I’ll take it.” But, I was 27 or whatever, and I had a lot more energy. And I ha- I didn’t have other commitments like family and things like that. And so being at work ev- pretty much every night and most weekends was a lot.

And age kind of helped me put that in perspective for sure. Having a family and starting a family was, put that in perspective immediately. Especially when you have kids, it’s like everything’s in perspective all of a sudden. And but w- I talk to, to staff now, and the, the, that same kind of culture exists for some folks, and they refer to it as, pa- you paying your dues.

Now you’re the director, so you don’t have to go to everything, and that’s probably true, and there’s a lot of us, and we can share that and create a different culture that we wanna see. But there is still that perspective that if you ha- it’s almost like hazing.

It’s let’s put you through the ringer.

Hannah Aksamit: Ugh.

Jason Mockford: And then if you come out the other end and you’re still in this field you’re good. You’re part of the crew. And s- but I would like to think about ambition a little differently today as having the courage to bring forward ideas even if you’re not always certain how they’re gonna be received.

Because you’re accumulating all this experience, all this feedback from students and peers and connected to knowledge networks and all these things, and that’s like an incubator for some really amazing ideas to bring forward. But I think a lot of times there’s fear of bringing that forward.

So I would say that courage is really important. Or asking for more or different responsibility because you know you can make an impact and having again, there’s some courage that’s, part of that probably. But it always doesn’t, it doesn’t always have to mean applying to be the next rung on the ladder or giving up more of your personal life, for the cause or whatever it is.

So

Heather Shea: Hannah, I’d love to hear your thoughts. I see you’re like, for those of you who are listening, Hannah’s “Yes, that’s so true.” Yeah. Yeah. Talk, talk more and-

Hannah Aksamit: yeah. Absolutely …

Heather Shea: love to hear more.

Hannah Aksamit: Yeah. Jason and I have talked about perfectionism. I had written a piece for our directorate newsletter a, a couple months ago called Doing Less with Less: The Grieving Process of a Recovering Perfectionist.

And this concept of hustle culture, this the, the personal identity of we just are so socialized within our ideal worker norms to be so giving- Yes … of ourselves. And I think the folks who are drawn to do this work in higher education and student affairs of, okay we were drawn to this work for a reason, and I think that comes with the emotional intelligence and labor that is not always acknowledged, and that is why I think so many of us get burnt out.

But yeah, it feels very millennial of me to refer to it as like the grind. But I do feel like especially coming up through housing, there was this expectation to pay your dues. That other people have done this or the generations before you have, have gone through this and you somehow are obligated to also do those same things and suffer in the same ways.

And I’m like, that’s not a flex. It’s not a flex to work more than your 40-hour week. And I would say of the Gen Z That Goes to College book that I read in grad school feels very different than the Gen Z that I work with now. And I am really grateful to those students that I supervise that I would say help reinforce of “Oh yeah, no, those are not actually realistic expectations.

We don’t want that.” And pushing back against that has really made me question of, okay, why do I have some of these internalized narratives? And it’s like, that’s not sustainable for anyone. Just because someone else had to suffer through this, like I don’t… I now am the supervisor. I have the ability to change that culture, to make shifts and have conversations, okay, around what does serve us, what do we value, and how am I actively role modeling that.

I, I would say I still am thinking about what Jen said about this enough piece. Definitely echo please unpack that with your therapist. I, that is something I actively- … am working on. Of so much of the work that we do, all of it feels ur- urgent and important. If you’re familiar with that, I think it’s the Eisenhower Matrix of what’s not urgent, not important, what isn’t urgent and important.

And I’m like, I we’re in this for a marathon. Higher education as it continues to come under attack- … as funding continues to get cut and cut, it’s like, okay, we do have less resources. What would it look like to do less with less instead of doing less better or doing more with less? And I’m like, “No, I’m so grateful that I have a supervisor in an area that’s saying of, ‘Okay, like what would it look like to scale back?’

Because we want you here, because we want our staff-” To be able… ‘Cause the resources, the wealth of knowledge, the insights that we have, we wanna retain our folks. We have such great experience to be able to offer and to say, “Okay, this is how we are role modeling that shift in hustler- in, in hustle culture.”

That, that is the active approach we are taking is role modeling it ourselves. It is exceptionally uncomfortable to unlearn and to kinda sit in ooh, now am I feeling bored to kinda dance pace of, okay, is this what boredom feels like? And it’s like, no, that’s actually what is gonna sustain you for the long run.

The fact that I’ve done these lesson plans, the fact that I’ve set myself up for success to do another year of training so I have capacity to maybe do other things has been such a gift. And it’s not boredom, it’s just innovation or it is leaning into that efficiency that I had already done to say, “Okay, it’s okay to scale back.

We don’t need to be doing five programs a week.” W- but the cost of it the burnout, again, one of it, folks leaving the field, but it costs us creativity, it costs us connection. Yes. If we don’t have a cup to pour from when we are just so exhausted, and I see that for my colleagues, I would say especially my folks in orientation.

They’re like, “How am I supposed to do less with less when we’re admitting the largest class that we ever have?” And that’s really hard because yeah their senior leaders are making a call and kinda the way that trickles down, like I t- I don’t have answers to folks. And so for me, I would say what ambition looks like is, like how am I protecting myself, my values, my peace in a way that I can still do this work sustainably, in a way that I can still show up and role model to others of while work is incredibly important, doing gen- gender equity work inside my office and in all spaces I exist in, of this is for the long run.

This is not something that is gonna be done in the span of a week while orientation may be done during that time. But we wanna make sure that we have the energy to keep going and the ability to show up emotionally, intelligently and empathetically to be able to support our students, to be able to support our colleagues.

So yeah, definitely recommend p- prioritizing our own holistic wellbeing because at least I talk about that with my students all the time. We’re trying to develop them as leaders. We’re telling them that leadership is beyond titles, and it’s like, ooh, sometimes maybe I need to listen to my own advice of, okay, it isn’t necessarily that specific title change.

Maybe it isn’t specifically that I am doing this one thing really well. It’s how full are all of those dimensions of wellbeing. Is my community and social wellbeing feel- feeling full? Is that, how’s that financial wellbeing piece going of okay, cool, career and my occupational wellbeing’s feeling, feeling really great.

I got all of these opportunities, but at what expense? Where is my cup maybe not feeling full in the other ways? And so rounding that out to be able to role model that to our students, I think, is a really great way to reframe what ambition could look like.

Heather Shea: That’s great. I wanna go back to you, Gudrun, for a moment because I think that there’s also all kinds of assumptions about what mid-level people are doing and if they lack ambition or are somehow stalled in their careers or they’re doing what, another thing that came out of the pan- pandemic, the quiet quitting, right?

Of just showing up, doing the bare minimum. Does the research support that these are actual assumptions that people make about mid-level folks or does it tell a different story? How do we counteract if that is the narrative?

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah. Yeah, I would say it really doesn’t support that story, right?

There might be… there are- … some professionals who are trying to move up and couldn’t find a position, right? And we know that it’s hard to move up ’cause there’s fewer people at the top. And so yeah, there are definitely some folks who wanted to move up and maybe weren’t able to, right?

Or folks who are struggling and not feeling supported in their environment, and so they are engaging in some kind of quiet quitting. But I think for a lot of folks it is an intentional choice that actually is based on their care for what they do, the work that we do, the work that we do as a field, right?

We’ve heard from multiple panelists about how they feel like they can do more at a mid-level than maybe they could do at a senior level, and it allows them to be a better professional if they stay at that level than if they’re just focused on moving up. And so I think… But I think those narratives are out there, right?

And then it makes it really difficult for folks if they, at some point in time, say, “Now I am ready to move up,” or, “I might be interested,” right? And maybe it’s life circumstances have changed. Children have, gone off to college. Not looking at you, Heather, no.

Heather Shea: I know.

Gudrun Nyunt: And maybe at that point in…

And maybe not. Yeah. But maybe at that point in time you’re like, “Oh yeah, I could see myself doing a senior level role now.” But I think we have these narratives in our profession, and so then it’s really hard for those folks at that point in time to say, “Now I wanna move up,” and now they have to constantly justify, “This is why my resume says I stayed in mid-level for this long,” right?

Or even worse, if you stayed in entry level for a while. And so I think part of- What I’m always struck with as we, as a field, we’re so focused on supporting students holistically, and we do a really terrible job at thinking about our staff members in holistic ways, right? Okay. And thinking about that maybe it was the best decision for them to stay at that level for a while, and maybe it wasn’t career-wise, but maybe it was for them as a whole person, right?

And so we shouldn’t hold that against them when they say, “Now I’m ready to move or do something different.” And so I think tho- those narratives are there, and they’re really harmful in how folks move through their career, right? I think the other thing that, that has come out of my research is that there are all these pressures, right?

To move up, to move from one institution to another to follow the, these career narratives that we have. And often that creates a lot of harm for folks, right? Where they’re like, “Oh, am I doing this wrong?” I’m thinking of one my participants who stayed at the same institution for a long time and was able to move up at that institution, right?

But often got that question of you’ve been here for the majority of your career,” right? “You should think about going somewhere else and getting a different experience.” And for them, that institution was just a really great fit, right? In terms of personality, in terms of values. It felt good.

They had a partner, so they were location bound, right? It was working. But there’s these constant messages that folks get of “You should be doing your career differently.” And so I’d love for us as a field to really think about the harm that we do when we try to put our staff members into boxes, right?

And say, “This is what you gotta do.” When as a field we always say we don’t wanna do that to students, right? So why are we doing that to staff?

Heather Shea: Yeah. Yeah, I’d love to hear what other folks think about this. Have there been points in your career where you felt necessary to explain or de- defend your job decisions or any ways that these misconceptions might have shown up,

Jason Mockford: Well-

Heather Shea: in your position? Yeah.

Jason Mockford: Gudrun, you could have been describing me in that story. And I know you weren’t, but I, I have been at the same institution since I was an undergrad, and I used to get that question a lot of, “Why aren’t you moving on to another institution? Why are you here?” I love it here.

First of all, it’s a wonderful place. And this is the only four-year university in the, for hours around us, right? That is definitely part of my story, and I’ve, that has subsided over the years recently. And I’ve figured out how to, do some of the things that we’re talking about, about, redefining my career for myself, and people are, some people see that certainly and have maybe understood it better.

But yeah, I definitely experienced that. I also supervise mid-levels, including folks who are very content to be where they’re at for some various reasons, whether that’s, h- retirement’s on the horizon and they’re just ready to just finish out what, with what they’re doing. They’re content with the responsibilities that they have.

Sometimes they have different values and priorities like I, what I described for myself or being here in this location is more important than trying something new or being somewhere else and starting over. And sometimes these people have deep institutional knowledge and they have campus and community connections that are so invaluable that help us move things forward.

I think about a warp speed. If I need something, I’m gonna go to this person ’cause they know this person, and we’re gonna make it happen ahead of schedule. Or sometimes the, because of those connections, they’re able to… We have a s- we have a idea that we think is amazing, and it turns out it’s this small idea that once we’ve connected it to all these other people that have been around for a while and then have all this knowledge, it turns into something bigger than we originally planned, and that’s really cool too, to be able to tap into that network and that resource of folks that have been around.

So

Heather Shea: I love that. Other thoughts?

Jen Lombardo: I’ve been lucky enough that no one has disparaged my decision to stay mid-level or told me that I should be doing this. But I do frequently have conversations with people who will say, “Oh, do you want to move up?” Or, “There’s a Dean of Students role that has come open.

Are you going to apply for it?” And then you’re having to justify why you wanna stay where you are. And I get to talk about how the job that I have really fits the things that I want for my job and allows me to do things that really light me up. And I don’t really wanna be on call 24/7, as Gudrun was mentioning.

I don’t wanna have to be woken up in the middle of the night because a student’s in the hospital or there’s a student death, and don’t really wanna oversee disciplinary processes. And so I think what I am trying to do is more proactively communicate and create a narrative that it’s really valuable to become an institution in your institution, to be a pillar of the community.

And this is kinda going to what Jason was talking about. And so I think, again, having come from K12, about how if you think about your schooling, there is a couple of, a handful of teachers- … that were just pillars of that community. And they were teachers for their entire career, and they really committed themselves to pouring into students and refining their craft.

And then people think so fondly upon them as they reflect back on their time. And why don’t we want more of that for- Yeah … our profession? Yeah. For to ha- have people who are so impactful in our community that they will think back so fondly of us. And if we’re k- encouraging people to hop positions and climb the career ladder because that’s the narrative of success, like we’re really missing out.

So thanks for saying that, Jason. I think that’s on point.

Heather Shea: Yeah. I also think, part of the misconception for me too is there are lots of other things that I like to do, this podcast being one of them. And so as I’ve moved, I also lead a three-week undergrad study abroad program that I’ve led now through four different positions.

And each time I’ve moved roles on my campus, I’ve made that a request, right? Like I wanna continue to do this. Will you support? And there have been times when I’m like, “I can’t go to that role because I can’t leave my team during that particular time.” New student orientation would not have been a pathway for me because of the summer work that I do abroad.

So I think there’s, mid-level careers afford this whole level of familiarity and a ability to do things that really also feed me my cup. But I think it, it does matter how your supervisor views this too, right? And like I said, I’ve asked each time, “Can I continue being the host of a podcast?”

Even though it’s not academic affairs necessarily, right? So Hannah, maybe you could talk a little bit about- first any misconceptions that have been placed on you, but also how can supervisors in institutions better support those folks who wanna stay at mid-level?

Hannah Aksamit: Yeah. I still feel pretty early in my mid-level career, so I would say I personally don’t feel like I’ve felt that pressure personally yet.

But I do feel like I have seen and heard a lot of the judgment that is passed. I do think that, that student affairs, that we can be cliquey. I’m like I see that. Again, every functional area is different. But I would say there is a lot of judgment that is passed. But I feel so grateful. I cannot speak highly enough of my supervisor ’cause I really feel like she’s done this in this role and has just given me so much permission.

But I would say validating. That is what institutions and supervisors can do, is validate our choices from a place that does not feel like they are judging, but genuinely from a place of curiosity. Starting with a foundation of trust, really building that rapport, and that takes time. That has been really nice of okay, I’ve been in my role for four years now.

This is my first mid-level role. But I’ve been in this role for four years now, and my supervisor and I know each other. She knows where I spend my time after work, if I’m volunteering at the food bank or if I’m playing lightsabers with my friends because we have a performance coming up, that she asks me about those things.

She wants to see pictures. She wants to … that rapport building is validating my choices in life outside of work.

Gives me the energy to show up to work, and then I get to talk to my students about Star Wars. So that’s always a win. But that validation but also her understanding my why. That is something that I come in and I ask my students all of the time.

But saying, “Okay, why do you wanna do these things?” ‘Cause I, similar to Jason, am someone who loves to say yes when opportunities arise. And I wanna be on that committee. I wanna chair that thing. I wanna be able to do X, Y, and Z ’cause I think it’s gonna be great experience. And for her to be like, “Hey, it’s really hard for me to tell you no when you do great work and you f- tell me you have time.

But then I see you’re getting tired. The quality is still great, but you could spend that time doing other things outside of work.” And I’m like, “Oh, what a concept.” And so for her, without judgment, to critically ask me to reflect on, okay why? Do I already have that skill?

Are there new people I’m gonna meet? Is that what I wanna do for my next career step? ‘Cause I constantly have been saying, and it’s a sign-off that I’m using now of, “Just because I can doesn’t mean I should.” And that has been so powerful and realizing of oh, I think that is really the, the mantra that I need to keep moving into whatever my next mid-level career would be because I want it to be deeply fulfilling.

And it does not need to- Fill all of my time and having a supervisor that validates, again, life outside of work, that is so important to me. And being able to ask those questions or her ask those questions of me is helpful because maybe sometimes I don’t stop and do that for myself. I just think because I have the capacity to do this that I should because society says as a cog in the, the machine that I need to be so giving again of myself.

But I can spend that time and energy elsewhere and knowing that makes ripples in the other communities that I’m a part of

Heather Shea: My friend Keith Edwards would say, “Don’t should on yourself,” right? That is a thing that we do often, I think. Dan, I’d love to hear your thoughts. What would you want supervisors in institutions to do better by their mid-level folks?

Dan Cantiller: Yeah. I love this question. And I guess I’ll share as well that I’m a fairly new manager to professional staff and including some who have more mid-level experience or who have been in their roles a while. So I think I’ve had to check myself as well about how is my approach to supporting these professional staff because I come in with a lot of energy, or, I would love to talk about development and all these kinds of things and have you heard about this professional development thing or this learning opportunity?”

And I’ve also received and learned that’s not everyone’s jam, of- … of me wanting to be like, “Hey, I think this would be great for you, or are you interested in this?” And I think as much as maybe that enthusiasm is sometimes welcomed, right? I think I also have to be conscious of am I checking myself in terms of withholding judgment or-

… Or imposing maybe this expectation that they should be wanting to develop XYZ, right? Or that their path should mirror or sort of the path that I’ve come through, right? And I talked a, a little bit earlier on starting as a newer professional in a more remote institution, and maybe that sort of energy or spirit around maybe hustling or gaining experiences and learning to get me to that next opportunity.

And maybe some of the folks I’m working with now are happy with where they’re at or, as some folks have mentioned on the call have other priorities or other things that bring them joy outside of their role, which is wonderful, and I’m so happy for them. So I think part of it is knowing your team members, honoring their experience- and understanding sort of what are their priorities or what motivates them in their role, right? And then how can I assist them in terms of recognizing that or building on areas that they are interested or seeking input or development. So that could be being res- resourceful and being knowledgeable about different workshops or different PD opportunities, for example.

Or even just the kinds or nature of feedback that that they would find valuable for what they are focusing on or that they’re ex- Interested to gain more perspective or focus from a manager about X, Y, and Z skill, right? I think it’s really, again, being conscious not to impose an approach or perhaps a trajectory on, on, onto folks, but really to understand where they’re at and what they would like in terms of support.

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah. I was gonna add, I think part of that is also recognizing your own biases that you have in terms of what a career trajectory should look like, right? ‘Cause I think often that harm is done very well-meaning of being like, “Oh, you’ve been in this position for so long. How can we help you?” Right?

“Move up or move to this or do this.” And it’s And then the person has to be like actually hang on.” I, I- I stand by you. I’m not who you think I

Hannah Aksamit: am. … I don’t think that’s good.

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah. And so I think it’s that helping us recognize so that we can rephrase the question to just say, “How are things going?

Where do you see yourself?” Continuing to focus on in your career, where do you see your career going? So that these questions come out as more open to whatever folks want it to be. I think the other piece with that is positions also don’t stay the same, what the job description was when you started- Right

when folks stay in them for longer.

They shift. There’s new responsibilities added on. People might have interest in something, and so as a supervisor you can help them get that experience. And I think at the same time we also need to be careful to not just keep adding to people’s responsibilities ’cause they’re interested, and there are folks who say yes.

Or if we do that, then think about is there something we can do in terms of title compensation to actually adjust that to the work that they’re now doing- … rather than the work that they were hired to do, right? So we need to be really careful with that. But I think that, too is recognizing that being…

If you’re a hall director, which is entry level, right? But even if you’re a hall director for three years, the way you did it your first year is probably super different, right- … from the way you did it your third year. And same with mid-level, right? The way you’re supervising staff or the committees that you sit on and the things you’re involved in at the institution, that shifts over time because you have experiences, because you have interests, right?

Because your supervisors are hopefully connecting you with things. And again, we also need to think about how are we compensating that higher level labor, if that’s what’s happening.

Heather Shea: Yeah. I wanna do this next question, this is the second to last question, as a lightning round because I love kind of the short snippet of…

What advice would you give to somebody who is feeling guilty about not wanting the next title? Who would like to go first? And lightning is subjective, right? A sentence or two. Jen, do you wanna start us off?

Jen Lombardo: Sure, I’ll start. Okay. Yeah I would really, I really just wanna ask that person, like, where is that guilt coming from, and like- whose voice are they hearing? Is it parental expectations or a mentor who poured into them and wanna see them- … climb to the highest ladder part, rung of the ladder that they can? Or is it just some feeling that “I won’t be seen as successful if I don’t move up,” that’s like societal pressures.

So the more you can help figure out where that voice is coming from, then you can be in dialogue with it and externalize it a little bit more, and think about what do you want, and what does that mean that I’m having this feeling, and how can we address it and continue and to lead, lean into what is going to make you happy in your life?

Heather Shea: That’s great. Next, who wants to go next?

Hannah Aksamit: The only word that came to mind was, like, don’t. Just don’t. Yeah. Just don’t feel guilty which is easier said than done. The advice I would have would be- Don’t … don’t. Really just realizing of so much of that pressure kinda to Jen’s piece of it is societal pressure.

It is the White supremacist capitalistic culture- … that we live in- … that is that we are so steeped in to say of I constantly need to be pushing and performing and it’s like actually rest is really powerful. It is recovery. It is resistance and, yeah, you don’t need to feel guilty for not wanting that next title.

And sometimes people just need to hear that verbal permission and then realize of oh, I am so deserving of rest. So don’t. Don’t feel guilty.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah I was there with you, Hannah. I was like, don’t, and I was like I can’t tell them how to feel, right? And so I loved Jen saying unpacking it, but I also think part of it is normalizing it to say you’re not alone, right?

There’s lots of folks- Yeah … who are making this choice. And I think sometimes, a- and that’s I do primarily qualitative research and that’s one of the things I love is sometimes it’s just hearing those stories. Yeah. It’s not gonna fix the situation, but if I hear- … stories of other folks who are navigating similar challenges, it helps me- see this is not just me, right? This is not a me problem. This is a society problem that is put on me.

And together we can figure out how to navigate it, but there’s nothing wrong with me, right? I’m not… This is not me.

Jason Mockford: I’m having a little trouble with this question, to be honest with you, because I, when I read it title, that could be a motivation for many people is- of course we’ve been talking about that. But for this person that’s this fictional person that might be feeling guilty there are probably other things that are motivating them. So I- Yeah … I would think I wouldn’t probably linger with the guilt too much. That’s maybe, some of those suggestions so far have been really helpful about, how do you help manage some of that guilt, but there are probably things that are motivating for you and let’s unpack what those are.

Yeah. Maybe it’s a, a project or a responsibility, or maybe you wanna try something on and see if it fits, but I’m not worried about that person that doesn’t want that title because someone else is gonna want it. If it’s available, someone’s gon- someone’s gonna go for it. So let’s just focus on the person and what it is that they are bringing, what motivates them and where they wanna take it.

Heather Shea: Love that. I love that, too.

Dan Cantiller: I think we can flip our thinking about this in terms of the feeling guilt, not wanting the next title, but as has already been discussed in some of in, with some of our previous questions, people may be- Maybe it’s more or less like why am I not feeling this way?

But then why am I feeling great about where I am?

And it could be I feel that this is I’m in the right place, I’m in the right institution, but there’s several elements that I feel are valuable or enrich my experience. And maybe celebrating that, right? Or being like, “Actually, I feel like this is the right place, the right time at this point in my life.”

And when circumstances change, then I might think about, a different role or potentially moving up or, you know, pursuing something different. But how often is it that we can actually be really present in the present, right? And being like, “Actually, things are working.”

Because I think oftentimes we’re so anxious about what about this, what about that? Or maybe feeling this positive restlessness or feeling that we should be doing something. And then if we were to really look back from where we are now we might be surprised that, and really proud of where we’re at now, but sometimes we can’t actually enjoy that because we feel like we should be working towards the next thing, right?

So yeah, I’d want us- I want us to encourage us to be present, and if we’re in the space of I actually don’t wanna move into that thinking about what is it about where I’m at right now that actually makes me happy or feel fulfilled?

Heather Shea: Yeah. I love that. I love that. So this podcast is our final question.

This podcast is called Student Affairs Now. We always ask the same question, what is one thing you are pondering, troubling, or thinking about now? And you might also share how people can get in touch with you. And so I’m gonna start with Gudrun.

Gudrun Nyunt: Yeah. This has been such a great conversation. Yeah. I just love, like, all the wisdom that you all have shared about how we think about student affairs careers.

And so I think as a faculty and researcher now, I keep thinking about how do we turn this wisdom that exists from research, from practitioners who are sharing their stories, and actually change things. And I think that’s where I’ve been tenured for two years now and so I’ve been pondering that a lot, of how is my research actually making impact, right?

Before that there was more of that I need those publications to get tenure, and I need to get into that top tier journal ’cause that will look good, right? But then I’m like, are folks actually reading this? I don’t know. Occasionally people will say “Oh, I read your article.” But I’ve also noticed that when I write in more practitioner focused journals, that’s when I get the emails of colleagues who said, “Hey, I read that article,” right?

And when I’m in those top tier journals, I don’t get those emails. And so I’ve been thinking a lot more about how do we use the knowledge, and the skills, and the wisdom that we have as a field to actually start making changes, right? And not just these small tweaks that we can make as individuals, but as a field.

Like, how do we… So we like to say in ACPA like how do we actually boldly transform higher education and move things forward?

Heather Shea: I love that

Gudrun Nyunt: Oh, and I always forget that. How you can get in touch with me. My email is G-N-Y-U-N-T, so my first initial, last name, @niu.edu. You can find me on LinkedIn. I don’t think there’s any other Gurun Yunt, so I’m easy to find.

You can find my faculty website with all my contact info. So I’m pretty easy to track down.

Heather Shea: Awesome. Thanks so much, Gurun. Dan, how about you? Final thoughts.

Dan Cantiller: Yeah, final thoughts. I th- thank you so much, for coordinating this podcast episode. I’m so happy that we’ve been able to continue this conversation.

I’m excited to continue with working with the ACPA Mid-Level Community of Practice to help mid-level folks connect and kind of elevate issues that, and experiences that are ours and that we feel are important to discuss. I’m excited to welcome folks to be coming to Toronto next year for the ACPA Annual Convention.

Yay. So basically in my backyard. Basically in, in my kitchen. Anyways, So that’s really exciting. So look forward to connect- connecting with people here in Toronto in March. Folks can find me on LinkedIn as well, so Dan Cantillo, and my email is dancan, so D-A-N-C-A-N, @torontomu.ca.

Heather Shea: That is a cool email address.

I love it. Thanks so much, Dan. Jason, what are you thinking about, troubling, pondering, and how- Yeah, well- … can people get in touch with you?

Jason Mockford: Now I’m conti- I’m gonna be thinking about this conversation for a while. This was a really great conversation, so thanks for having me on, and good to spend time with you all.

I’ve been thinking a lot about conflict and mediation, conflict resolution- … for a long time, many years but especially lately. And I think that our tools and skills that used to be able to bring us together are being forgotten- … or ignored. And instead, it’s easier for us to keep to our bubbles, and we disagree with somebody, push them into their bubble away from our bubble so that we don’t have to deal with each other.

And our algorithms are helping us do that. And I also see more people re- starting to recognize this as something that we should be talking about more and trying to reverse the trend, and that brings me a great deal of hope. So I love that. And I’m always happy to connect, so you can email me at jmockfor@calpoly.edu, or you can feel free to link in with me.

Thanks.

Heather Shea: Awesome. Thanks, Jason. Hannah?

Hannah Aksamit: Yeah. I continue to think about our trans, non-binary, gender non-conforming students, faculty, and staff and the additional barriers they’re facing in navigating our campuses and world, especially right now. Raise- it weighs really heavy on my heart and mind. Yes … how can we center them in our conversations and planning, ensure their safety and experiences are infused into all of our work, not just gender equity centers?

Yes. So yeah definitely very present for me. But folks are welcome to reach out to me on LinkedIn, and then my email is H and my last name, Haksamit, so H-A-K-S-A-M-I-T @ucsd.edu.

Heather Shea: Awesome. Thanks so much, Hannah. As a parent of a trans woman, thank you. I agree. It’s definitely not a, a friendly place right now.

Jen, final thoughts from you?

Jen Lombardo: Yeah. Something that’s been on my mind and heart a whole lot is financing graduate education. Most of the students I work with are graduate students, and coming from a college access background, I care a whole lot and I worry a whole lot about educational co- costs- and loan burdens. And as many people know, the new federal loan changes are being rolled out, so there’s new caps on federal student loans. There’s the elimination of the Grad Plus loan. And there are some people who are not opting into grad school at all, but a lot of other people are being pushed into the private market to finance their education, and the interest rates and the loan terms are far less desirable than they would have been under Grad Plus, and that really worries me.

So I don’t know what to do with that, but I am… I’m hopeful that more colleges and universities might be willing to step into the direct lending game. That- that’s very complicated. There’s a lot of risk associated with that. Or perhaps, partner with private lenders to get some preferable rates, perhaps similar rates as some of the Grad Plus offerings that are no longer available- so that it can increase access in a different way. So hopefully there’ll be some innovative solutions on the horizon, but we’re at the front end of kind of feeling the impact of that, and so I’m thinking about it a whole lot. If people wanna connect with me I’m on LinkedIn, or you can email me.

It’s my last name, Lombardo, L-O-M-B-A-R-D-O @uchicago.edu. And thank you all for this lovely conversation. It’s lovely hanging out with you and talking about mid-level roles. I love it.

Heather Shea: I am so thrilled that we were able to pull this conversation together. I think it was less than a week. So thank you all for clearing your schedules and making this possible.

The wisdom and the, the personal stories and the connection, and then adding that to the research like this was a fantastic conversation. Before we wrap up, of course, we always wanna say thank you to our incredible producer, who does all the things behind the scenes to make us look and sound great.

Thank you, Nat. You rock. And also thanks to our sponsor of today’s episode, Evolve. Given the current context of higher education, we need to invest in leaders with the capacity and capabilities to transform their institutions. Isn’t that just what you just said, Gudrun? Like- Yeah. … it’s ironic, right?

Transform their institutions and the future of higher education. The Evolve Institute for Higher Education Leadership offers four leadership coaching journeys tailed to four- tailored to four different leadership levels. Each is a three-month journey that includes individual and group coaching, plus a curated curriculum of short asynchronous video modules.

Evolve also offers leadership for teams, so if you are ready to evolve your leadership voice, visit evolve-institute.com to learn more. Again, thank you so much to our incredible panel. We really appreciate your time and energy. And for all of you who are listening your listening, sharing, recommending this to other mid-level folks in your life will definitely help us reach more people.

And if you subscribe either on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts, that also helps as well. Finally, I’m Heather Shea. Thanks for watching and listening. Take care of yourselves, and take care of one another. Let’s make it a great week.

• https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/a-cultural-psychology-of-discrimination/202310/how-capitalism-shapes-the-mind 
• https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/everyday-resilience/202406/defining-success-on-your-own-terms
• Values Sort Exercises: https://www.thegoodproject.org/value-sort or https://www.think2perform.com/values/