Patty Perillo: That’s where I think people are not being as courageous. And I don’t say that from a place of judgment, I want to be clear, but what I know is that we as leaders show up with all of our stuff, whether we’re conscious of it or not conscious of it. And I think the work and responsibility of leadership, if you are going to take a position of responsibility, then you have the responsibility to do your work so you can understand where your biases are showing up, where your triggers are showing up where it allows you to lead more responsively than reactively. And I, so I think it’s really important, and it’s the work that we’re doing here across the Division of Student Affairs with our leadership team, is really calling on our colleagues who are in leadership positions to do their work because it matters so very much. And I think the cost of not doing it is immense, because it’s denying the truth of who we are. It’s denying our greatest capacities. It’s not allowing us to lead at our best selves. And so I think that’s a really big cost.

Heather Shea: Record, which is a very important part, step in the process. And our awesome producer Nat will go in and inevitably ed- edit this part out, so thank you so much, Nat All right. Welcome to Student Affairs NOW, the online learning community for student affairs educators. I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today we are bringing you a conversation connected to the Raines Colloquium, a distinguished lecture series held twice a year at Michigan State University that brings thought leaders to campus to engage our community around timely issues in higher education and student affairs.

Joining us today is the keynote speaker for this spring Raines Colloquium, Dr. Patty Perillo, Vice President for Student Affairs at the University of Maryland. When I reached out to Patty to propose this episode, she immediately suggested that her colleague Earl Cabellon, Director of Staff Experience and Culture, maybe one of the coolest titles I’ve ever heard join us to bring his perspective and expertise on organizational culture and employee experience, and the day-to-day work of helping people thrive within complex organizations.

So together, the three of us will explore what it means to lead with courage, care, and authenticity during a time of significant change, and how leaders can foster cultures of belonging and wellbeing for both students and staff. Before we dive in, I just want to mention to you that if you’d like to engage more deeply with the Student Affairs NOW learning community and continue the conversation beyond the podcast, you can join us at Patreon at patreon.com/studentaffairsnow.

As I mentioned, I am your host for today’s episode, Heather Shea. My pronouns are she and her and hers, and I am broadcasting from the ancestral, traditional, and contemporary lands of the Anishinaabe, Three Fires Confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi peoples. Otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University, where I work.

All right, let me bring my folks all here onto the screen and I’ll do a brief introduction of both of you and then jump right in. So first, Dr. Patty Perillo. Welcome, Patty.

Patty Perillo: Good to see you, Heather.

Heather Shea: Thank you so much for being here.

Patty Perillo: Absolutely.

Heather Shea: Patty serves, as I said, as the Vice President for Student Affairs, and she is also Affiliate Professor in the Student Affairs program at the University of Maryland where she provides leadership for 16 departments and a team of more than 4,000 staff and students.

A past president of ACPA, certified executive coach, and nationally recognized student affairs leader, Patty has spent more than three decades advancing student learning, belonging, and community across higher education. And I’ll also note, my earliest ACPA experiences happened to be when Patty Perillo was president.

So grateful for you, Patty and the path that you laid for so many of us.

Patty Perillo: Right back at you, Heather. Right back at you.

Heather Shea: And also joining us, as I mentioned, Earl Cabellon. Earl is the Director of Staff Experience and Culture in the University of Maryland’s Division of Student Affairs, where he leads efforts to cultivate an inclusive and engaging workplace culture for more- Than 1,500 employees.

A certified professional coach and longtime student affairs educator, he focuses on talent development, employee experience, and creating environments where staff can thrive. Welcome, Earl

Earl Cabellon: Hi, Heather. Thank you so much for having me here. Good to be here.

Heather Shea: Good. Good to have you as well. And I’m so excited for our conversation today, so let’s join in.

Let’s start with just introduction. So feel free to share anything beyond the brief bio that I just read that you would like listeners to know about your work. And then let’s start with an easy question, hopefully. What is bringing you energy and joy in your work right now? And Earl, why don’t you kick us off?

Patty Perillo: Amen.

Earl Cabellon: Sure. Sure. Thank you again, Heather, and let me just start off by saying thank you to you and the Student Affairs NOW team for the amazing work you’ve been doing around this podcast. Truly, there are many of us in the profession that are grateful to you, so thank you. Before I start, I know that my last name holds some meaning with my brother Ed Cabellon, who is also…

We share the same last name and we share the same love for the work that we do in higher education and student affairs. So shout out to my brother, the other Cabellon in student affairs. My origin story just… It started 22 years ago, and I come from a campus recreation background. And it was there that I started to really fall in love with this work around people and human development.

And, for many years I was managing facilities and I was working with student employees and helping shape culture within the student employment program. And then as my career evolved I learned a lot about human resource management and working with our full-time staff and doing development work for 50 full-time staff and 900 student employees.

And so I have to give a nod to my origin story to campus rec. And then after the pandemic I got this amazing opportunity in the office of the vice president’s office to do this continued work. And grateful to Patty for noticing and giving me the opportunity to lead and to shape some of the things I was doing at a departmental level and scale it up to a divisional level.

And as you mentioned too, like I, I am a certified and professional coach, and I think part of that leans into what I’m gonna share with you all today from my perspective and the coaching mindset, which in a bottom line way is being and leading more curious, open, and non-judgmental. And really at the heart of it, knowing that people are naturally creative, resourceful, and whole.

And so that’s the lens I’m looking at leadership and this topic today that we’re talking about. And so what gives me energy, to your question I think we’re starting to talk about the quiet thing out loud-

…

Earl Cabellon: Which is more centering the student affairs workforce. And really excited that we get the opportunity to talk about that today, and just the joy that it’s a national conversation,

Heather Shea: awesome. Thank you so much, Earl. Great to meet you. And yes, shout out to your brother Ed, who I’ve known for a couple of decades I feel like. The Student Affairs Technology Task Force is how I first met Ed- Sure … feels like forever ago. Yeah. Patty, welcome. Yeah. What else would you like to share, and what is bringing you energy and joy right now?

Patty Perillo: Just time with the two of you. Like, how fun is it to spend time with two of my favorite colleagues ever? Heather, when you talked about my f- three decades in student affairs, I’m like, I think we’ve been walking alongside each other for much of that, Heather, if not all of that. Yeah. And and Earl what a joy it is to work alongside you every day, to have recognized your capacity and to see what you were doing within a department and to say, “I, I wanna retain you.

I do not wanna lose you. Can you come and do this across the division?” And one of the things that brings me joy is to work alongside colleagues like you, Earl every day to do work that creates the conditions for our people to thrive. There is no doubt about that. I also know that what’s bringing me lots of joy is this time of year in particular on college campuses the celebrations of our students.

I’m still looking at videos and pictures and it is, it’s just … H- like, how lucky are we to walk alongside students at such a critical time in their lives and to have an opportunity to celebrate them? So that’s certainly bringing me joy. Two other things I’ll mention in terms of what’s bringing me joy, particularly in my work life, is we have a strategic plan in the Division of Student Affairs, and two of our commitments, we put students first, and we invest in our people.

And they are just so central to who we are and what we do and how we live and lead. And today what we’re focused on, Heather, thanks to you and this invitation, is ways in which we are investing in our people. And the last that I’m so excited about is that we just launched our co-curricular learning outcomes for the Division of Student Affairs.

It is such- That’s great … a joyful time to be here and do this work, and I just love the co-creation. I love the deep commitment. I just feel very lucky to work alongside just such talented people.

Heather Shea: Having been on a team that has worked on learning outcomes, oh my goodness, it is a lot of work.

And such an incredible opportunity then to tell the story alongside those learning outcomes, which will hopefully kinda make that easier across your division so far. You’re

Patty Perillo: right. So far. Yep, absolutely.

Heather Shea: Yeah. So Patty, I’m gonna stay with you for a second. In your talk at the Raines Colloquium in the spring, you called for bold action, this is one of the things that I wrote down and courage.

And I think one of the things that struck me is that it’s hard sometimes to take bold action and have courage because sometimes leader cho- leaders choose comfort and compliance over courage. Where do you see that happening, and what do you see are the costs of not leaning into bold action and courage?

Patty Perillo: It’s such an interesting question, Heather, and I think I want to begin with wanting to be cautious about the dichotomy between- … comfort and compliance and bold action.

Earl Cabellon: Yep. ‘

Patty Perillo: Cause I really do believe that all of us are doing the best that we can. I just… And in some of the most unprecedented, complicated times.

Recently my good colleague, who’s an assistant vice president here, Dr. James McShay, and I co-wrote a, a chapter in Adriana Kazar’s latest book. It’s the second edition of Our Higher Education Administration’s Work for Social Justice and Equity. And we wrote a chapter on the work that we’re doing here in the Division of Student Affairs around intentional and purposeful leadership to create more equitable and just environments.

And one of the things that we named in that is that where you work matters, and in what state you work in matters, and that it’s not always easy for everyone. We feel very fortunate to be where we are at the State of Maryland at the University of Maryland a state and a community and high- higher ed institution that’s deeply invested in this work.

So we have been able to stay the course. That allows us to be courageous, right? It ju- it just really does. And I’m witnessing across the country so many of my colleagues who are doing the best that they can to align their values with their work in really difficult times. Now, we all know that there are some people that have preemptively complied, right?

But I don’t know the pressures that they were dealing with. I don’t know the cost had they not. I don’t know that. But what I do know is that you cannot do the work of education and not do the work of justice and equity, right? When I think about where the question that you asked specifically, I went to the place of in this moment in time where higher education is being called under fire, and a lot of the work that we’ve done forever in student affairs is really being called on the carpet, right?

And while some are complying, a- again, I don’t know the c- the conditions in which that’s being created, and I want to offer all kinds of grace and opportunity for that. I believe where people are not being as courageous is where they’re not doing their own personal work.

That’s where I think people are not being as courageous.

And I don’t say that from a place of judgment, I want to be clear, but what I know is that we as leaders show up with all of our stuff, whether we’re conscious of it or not conscious of it. And I think the work and responsibility of leadership, if you are going to take a position of responsibility, then you have the responsibility to do your work so you can understand where your biases are showing up, where your triggers are showing up where it allows you to lead more responsively than reactively.

And I, so I think it’s really important, and it’s the work that we’re doing here across the Division of Student Affairs with our leadership team, is really calling on our colleagues who are in leadership positions to do their work because it matters so very much. And I think the cost of not doing it is immense, because it’s denying the truth of who we are.

It’s denying our greatest capacities. It’s not allowing us to lead at our best selves. And so I think that’s a really big cost.

Heather Shea: Yeah. Yeah, it really strikes me to think about all of the different contextual variances that are happening across the country. And certainly as I look across, and even just going to ACPA there were people who were, like, having to pay for going to the conference completely out of their own budget because their institutions or states wouldn’t allow them to go.

And I think a big piece of this is that when we when we invest in our people and we pour resources into them, they are, they end up being better for our students, right? So ultimately you I love that those are two centered concepts in your strategic plan. But I’m really struck by how how sometimes that care for people gets minimized in higher education spaces.

And Patty, I’ve seen you as a person who leads with care. Just it’s part of who you are. But you talked about in your talk about how that’s really a radical act right now. And so I’d love to hear a little bit more about how you develop that. And then when they think, when you think you’re being caring, sometimes you’re well-intended but they could, that could actually have a backfire.

So what do you think might be some of the pitfalls of when people think they’re being caring but they’re really not?

Patty Perillo: Oh, there’s so much there, Heather. It’s, it’s- I know … ever since I’ve known you, you ask such great, deep questions. Multiple

Heather Shea: part questions,

Patty Perillo: Yes, multiple part, and they’re just there’s just so much there.

A- and before I respond, which I’m certainly going to, I do, I noticed that when I talked earlier, Earl lit up when I talked about where people might not be courageous, was when they’re not doing their own work, and he lit up. And Earl, I just want to better understand, what was that response that you had related to when I said that?

Earl Cabellon: Yeah. No what I, what the reaction you noticed, Patty, was that it goes back to my leadership journey around being more coach-like. And when we are in that mindset and doing our deep work, can we really emerge as the people we wanna be, right? And so that’s why I lit up. And I just wanna just double down on what Patty talked about around just extending grace to leaders.

Leaders are struggling. And, there’s a lot happening, and I love how, Patty, you’re just globally talking about, leaders are different, are dealing with different things at different states and all of that, and I think that’s context worth noting. But yes, the deep work is definitely something that we can encourage people to do more of- so they can be better for people. So thank you for noticing, naming for naming that, Patty.

Patty Perillo: Absolutely. And Heather, you know this, I I don’t think care should ever be a radical act. It it should just be given in so many ways. I think about this a lot. We are all living our lives when we come to work.

We’re living our lives side by side, right? L- if we can’t care for each other, then what’s the point of living? Not even working what’s the point of living? And so I don’t believe that care should ever be a radical act. I think it’s gotta be a part of who we are and what we’re about. It’s a deep value of mine, and because it’s a value of mine it feels just easy to live out.

I know that for some people also some may say that care right now in this moment in time in particular is a form of resistance, right? It’s a form of resistance. I think that far too often people forget that care is a community responsibility. As well as an individual responsibility. I can’t tell you how many times I sit in meetings with my VP colleagues from across the country in many different forums, and there’s a lot of, people may be expecting too much from us, they gotta care for themselves.

That’s true. They there’s that’s… Individual self-care is essential. I think sometimes we can forget that care is also a community responsibility, and if you’re not creating the conditions for people to thrive, to flourish, to be well and healthy, then their best selves won’t be there. And Heather, you said it earlier I, I’m an educator.

Yes, I have a title as an administrator, but I’m an educator, and one of the precepts for education is modeling the way. And so we can’t bring out the best of our, in our students if we don’t bring out the best in ourselves, right? So we have to make sure that our staff continue to evolve and grow and learn.

And I believe that one of the best formulas for that is to create a caring, connected community. I witnessed that in my own childhood, I witnessed that growing up, that what happens when you wrap your arms around individuals in our communities and create a caring environment I… it’s fodder for all the growth and development that, that we really hope and wish and pray for depending on who you are, for our people and our communities.

I also think it’s really important for leaders to recognize that it is not a one and done. It- Yeah … it’s gotta be reflected in all the things that you say, but in the things that you do. Again, let’s talk about a l- a learning precept, the modeling, right? People witness how we act, not just what you s-say.

And if that’s inconsistent, people are not going to feel the sense of care that may be there. And again, it’s not a one and done. It’s gotta be integrated and permeated throughout the entire organization. Systems, structures, who you hire, your processes, your policies, your day-to-day living, and all of the things that surround the work that we do.

And so we have lots of colleagues here in the Division of Student Affairs that think about all of those things, and where is it that we might remove barriers- … that don’t allow us to live into the value of being a caring, connected community, ’cause that’s what we talk about here.

Heather Shea: Yeah. So you created this position which such a cool title, Earl.

I can’t wait to unpack, all of that. And I think it’s a title I’ve not heard. I’ve heard some, what was it? Vice president of student experience or a UX c- type role. But to really focus on staff experience and culture I think this is pretty uncommon. So talk a little bit about what that means.

What is the, what are the components of your role? What does staff experience, and why maybe should other senior leaders be paying more attention to this?

Earl Cabellon: Yeah. Great question, and I think it’s something that again, was part of Patty’s calculus to w- how she wanted to invest in people. And to have a position, a director position, that signals that we want to invest in our divisional staff was, clear and evident in the title and by design.

So staff experience was kinda what was chosen. Given the portfolio that I have, that I’m responsible for so to answer your first question, staff experience to us is really the whole arc of someone’s time here at the University- … of Maryland in the Division of Student Affairs. I would argue from the day that we post that position-

I think we’re really intentional about how we’re, putting out language around our positions to the time that they have to do their exit interview, right? And everything in between because there is things within that employee experience that matter most. And so my job is everything in between that.

In terms of learning and growth and ensuring that our people have opportunities to learn and grow and take advantage of the opportunities through collaborations with our departments. My, my portfolio also has some divisional HR responsibilities- … which i- in the original intent, we were negotiating that.

But I think for me, from a policy and systems level perspective, I get to be at the table with Patty and leaders around some of the HR policies and class and compensation and equity. And so it just gives me a deeper breadth of just not rolling out programs, but just more of a systems level leader at the table with expertise around that.

And some examples of just things that we’re doing here as the director of staff experience and culture is really, again, having these natural touchpoints for staff to engage in their employee experience. So for example, we do a new employee orientation for the Division of Student Affairs colleagues.

And what I think people pre- appreciate most, you talk about care and courage. Patty is in the space with our people- And if there’s one thing I know to be true when I see the evaluations, it’s that people appreciate leaders in the room- … connecting, sharing a meal, talking about what it’s like, and I think people appreciate that. I also think, too, in the employee experience within the division we have things, we have town halls where people can come together and coalesce and get information and connect with other colleagues across campus. Patty talked about the year-end celebration. We just filled a room of colleagues from all across the division to come together and celebrate the year.

We have community circles that Patty meets with leaders within a certain job classification- … and empowers them to go out and be in community and thematize what are you hearing from them. And Patty listens, and she takes notes, and she acts. And so when you have people leading that way it sends a signal.

And I think the strategy behind the director of staff experience was a signal that we are gonna invest in our people, and our leaders are gonna also model the way in terms of how we’re showing up I think your second question is an interesting one. And, I wanna be clear that for some senior leaders, some of your listeners, you may be at a small institution, you may be at a community college.

And so I wanna be clear that everyone’s in different kind of arenas right now. But if there was one thing I would ask people to pay attention to is, really look at the manager experience, the manager and staff experience and how we’re training up leaders and managers. I know when I first got hired, there was a lot of…

There was a poll survey that went out, and we learned that managers are struggling, right? And so how can we support them? The other piece is also just looking at, your job design. I think it’s something that’s, I know for me and others across student affairs, we’re looking at, job design, and we know that workload and burnout is a thing.

And so how are we looking at job descriptions at a systems level, and what are we really asking staff to do? And no judgment. I’m not saying that we’re not doing a good job. But for me I… it- it’s important to look underneath the hood sometimes to see what is happening. And so that would be my ask of senior leaders to look at the manager experience and then, might you look at how you’re crafting jobs would be just two things I would name.

Patty Perillo: It makes me think about, Earl, what you said. H- Heather, it leads me to a question for you. The fact that this was an important question for you, the fact that when I spoke at the colloquium, the the sense of care that I talked about really spoke to you. W- what was it about that spoke to you, and why was this an important question for you to explore?

Heather Shea: Yeah. I thank you for that. I was also… I think part of it is because we’re living through this really important and very uncertain time.

Earl Cabellon: Yeah.

Heather Shea: And I think sometimes during periods of uncertainty, people close in on their own. Yeah. And I think it’s, it can be sometimes harder to be that hopeful optimist or radical optimist, I also think that when we prioritize staff, and I like what you said, Earl, about managers because who you work for matters, right?

And that relationship between and in, and as a community, right? And part of why I think that also really resonated for me is ’cause two years ago, a little under two years ago, I took a new role outside of student affairs and I have a team of people. Part of it was I didn’t have resources prior. Now I have a team of people, and I recognize how important the culture and experience part of my job is in creating that for the folks who are my direct reports and for the folks who then report to them, right?

So that’s such a critical, that’s such a critical component, but I don’t know that we teach it well either, right? This is- Yeah … supervision isn’t something you necessarily learn about in grad school. You get to be a better supervisor sometimes by having a really terrible supervisor.

Patty Perillo: That’s true.

That is true.

Heather, it’s interesting. Marsha Baxter Magold and Peter Magold asked me to write in one of their books around complicated times in higher education. I forget the title of it, but I was doing a response to a faculty member who wrote about supervision, and I was the practitioner who was responding to supervision.

And what surprised me, and maybe it shouldn’t have, but it did surprise me, is that when I was writing this chapter about supervision, looking at the literature, there is very little on supervision in student affairs. I had to go to, organizational development or the business world or HR.

There is very little on supervision. And the research is really clear that people leave their bosses, not necessarily their jobs, right? And so who you work for creates such a different lived experience. And so if we do not invest in those people who are supervising others, then I I can’t do it alone.

You can’t do it alone. Earl can’t do it alone. You need to make sure that you create an entire ecosystem that is providing that kind of support, and that’s exactly why Earl’s position exists, and that’s the stuff that we are really invested in because you have to shore up supervisors. You just have to.

Heather Shea: Yeah. Yeah, I I think we can all tell stories about supervisors who have not been there, right? Or who, for whom, time in your chair mattered more than the quality of life, right? And I think about that, quality versus quantity, and, what is productivity? What is professional- like, all of these things socially constructed around systems of supremacy and the idea of dismantling that, but to the benefit of both the people who are in it, ’cause we need humane- That’s right

workplaces, right?

Patty Perillo: That’s right. That’s exactly

Earl Cabellon: right. Yeah.

Patty Perillo: Yeah. Heather… Go ahead, Earl. You go.

Earl Cabellon: Let me add one more thing, because I think it’s important to name, is that, yes, we know that the manager experience is important, and there are really good supervisors in this field that I know and I love that do great work.

And what you just talked about, Heather, is that when the system is off balance, no good manager is gonna… It that will just compound the problem even more. So wanted to name that in the space, that it’s a both/and. It’s leadership, it’s systems, and then the conditions that we’re, our people are working in really important and very complicated stuff.

But, the systems things, I wanted to throw that in there as well. Yeah.

Patty Perillo: And I wanna thread two things that you said as well, Heather. Particularly when you talked about supremacy, and it was in a particular, question that you asked before. One of, one of the things that I’ve come to understand, particularly in higher education and certainly in student affairs, we continue to reward those who h- you know, are on committees, on working groups, who publish, who…

It’s like the more and more you do, and I think that high achieving is in a white supremacy culture, right? In the division of student affairs, what we reward is people who act with love and kindness. So when we have town halls, people get an award. Yep. I literally read stories about things that people have done to love and care for one another.

It’s not who published the most or who, w- you know, who has more ribbons on their t- it’s not about that, because I think that continues to perpetuate the quantity that you just talked about, right? The expectation of more is better versus being is who we’ve gotta be about. And when you hear these stories about what our colleagues are doing to love and support one another, like one of my favorite stories is one of my colleagues in dining, hired a staff member who didn’t speak English, but he wanted to learn how to drive because it’d take three different forms of public transportation to get to his work.

He learned English. He learned Spanish, and he then became the partner in teaching him- Wow … how to get his driver’s license, and then he helped him buy a car, and then he helped him how to drive. He didn’t have to do any of that, right? Let us honor that kind of support for one another, and that’s one of the…

It’s one of the ways when I talked about it’s got, it’s not just a one and done. It’s gotta permeate all of what you do. That’s just one example of the permeating all that we do.

Heather Shea: Yeah. I’m thinking about kind of the challenging time that we’re in, and a big part of it and I t- I talk about this periodically with my team, but the things that are pinging every day, right?

Whether it’s the 24-hour news cycle or the latest, whatever they’re all within our sphere of interest, right? We care about those things because they will impact us, but we can’t really influence that stuff that’s happening. We can care about it, but it, we can’t really do anything about it.

And then at the end of the day, it’s the things that we can really control or which are really just our own reactions, attitudes, behaviors, that kind of thing. But sphere of influence, sphere of control when there’s so much uncertainty, and I’m thinking particularly around resources right now because I think budget cuts are happening in our campus, but I know in lots of other places.

How do you create culture when people are pinging all the time by all of this external noise that is consequential but you can’t really do anything about? I’d love to hear what either of you think on that.

Patty Perillo: Earl, paper, rock, scissors? No, you go. You

Earl Cabellon: go. Sure. Sure. I think that this is so important, and I- I’ll go- I’ll cut right to the chase.

I, I think this is where Patty talks about leaders doing their deep work, right?

And how we… Y- you said it beautifully, Heather. It’s like we can only control what we can do ourselves, right? And I start with me in everything. And what has surprised me, for me I’ll say for me, is that as someone who’s deeply empathetic and deeply in touch with my feelings, my emotions, it’s really easy for me to get sucked into the struggling colleague who just l- had a death in their family or going through IVF and holding space for them.

And I think for me, I’m learning that again, when I’m doing my own work, I’m able to do the things that I can do so I can show up for others. That’s a superpower, and I have access to it. It’s free, and I can, and do my own work in ways that are impactful. I, I’ve been using this term, and Heather, I don’t know if I heard this in one of your podcasts, but one of your guests talked about courageous humility.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

That’s

Earl Cabellon: a good one. Yeah … yeah, and what has surprised me about as we’re doing this work that Patty and I have been embarking on, and our leadership team, is this notion of courageous humility. And I tho- I thought about Patty because, it’s something that I witness her, as a leader, do day in and day out, right?

The ability to say the things that need to be said-

Patty Perillo: Yeah …

Earl Cabellon: and be okay with it, right? And how, what surprises me is that it resonates with some, and for others, maybe not. And Patty doesn’t hold that as anything, but just it is. And she’s vulnerable enough to show in that humility that if she doesn’t know the answer, she doesn’t know the answer.

A- and I think there’s something about creating culture and having that courageous humility that I believe our people say, “Huh that’s interesting. It’s appreciated, and it’s something we need more of in our leaders.” And I wonder if people, more people did that would there be less kind of ruminating in our mind and doing all that stuff.

So again, in, at a time when things are hard, the temptation really is to lead harder or go all in and control and direct and do that, when the actual work, in my opinion, is to pause, to listen more, to extend grace, and then start with yourself. So

Patty Perillo: I feel like we should drop the mic and end right now.

Look at that.

Heather Shea: That was brilliant. That was brilliant.

Patty Perillo: I agree. Yeah. A- and I want to be really clear that, Earl, I appreciate some of the things you’re saying, but what I’ve come to learn is that it’s not about, it’s not of me. One of the reasons why it resonates with you, Earl, and why this resonates with you, Heather, is because it is who you are, too.

I think more often than not, when we hear somebody talk or see somebody do something and we’re like, “Yes,” it’s not because of what they’re doing. It’s because they’re holding a mirror up, up to what’s within you. And so we are all caring, compassionate leaders, and want the world to be more and wanna talk about, so how do we make that happen?

Because you’re right, Heather, and you’re right, Earl, in complicated and messy times which we are in, people can just hunker down, right? When resources become limited and people just wanna take care of their own. And I think that our work is about opening people up, and I think the way that we do that…

There’s not the way. There are many ways to do that. But I think that one of the ways, one of the that we do that is to encourage and invite people to be in the present moment. And so one of the things that we’ve done a lot of in the Division of Student Affairs is open up to lots of people meditative practices.

And I will begin meetings with breathing or a kindness meditation or just to center ourselves. Because, Heather, you’re right. Things come at us at all different ways. One of the things that I do, and I know that some people don’t like this, and I’m okay with that, is that when we are together in a meeting, there, there are no laptops and there are no phones.

It, because it is so easy. I know what I do with my… I know I do it myself. If I’ve got a laptop in front of me, I try to listen, but I’m, things come in and I feel like I gotta respond. And so it is creating opportunities for us to be present with each other because what I believe to be true, and I, this is a lesson I learned from my family, and my mom in particular, is that, All good things happen in the context of good relationships.

Earl Cabellon: Yeah.

Patty Perillo: And you have to foster that. So when things become really tough and really hard, and the world sometimes feels like it’s just almost hard to bear sometimes, if you have good partnerships and relationships, it’s always gonna be okay. You can find your way through together, but you have to invest in that.

And I think being present to ourselves, which is part of the meditative, … and being present to others are some of the things that you do to make that happen.

Heather Shea: Yeah. And people know when you’re not paying attention too, right? I f- feel like that’s the other thing. I’ll be in a meeting, and it’s clear.

It might be on a screen, which that makes it even harder to not use your laptop when you’re literally have to use your laptop to join the meeting.

But then you’re like, “Wait a second I’m just speaking into the void,” right? It’s hard to be authentic when you know that there’s so many other things that people are focusing on.

Patty Perillo: And Heather, I think to that point, which I think is really great, is that I think that what people want more than anything is to be connected, right? We are wired for human connection. And we miss that opportunity t- for of- too often than not-

Heather Shea: Yeah …

Patty Perillo: because we’re all over the place, right? So connection only happens when you are with someone.

Heather Shea: Yeah. Physically. I think that’s the other thing that we got too good at using this medium, which I feel lucky to have the opportunity to do our podcast through Zoom, but, like, how much greater would it be if we were in person having this conversation- I know …

Patty Perillo: yes.

Heather Shea: And I feel like that’s the thing that we sacrifice, right?

And so the, particularly for staff, and my guess is you have staff in your division who are student facing, right? Students are walking to their office, and if they’re working remotely… Now, I’m all about making sure people have the flexibility they need to do what they need to do. But if you’re a student facing staff person, having the ability to greet that student, and then also have the water cooler conversations with your colleagues and- Yeah

be able to, share a practical joke or, The other day, this is gonna make my team freak out, but we had a cockroach in our office, and I tell you, everybody came out of their offices. We were all universally disgusted. And then we gave… I have an award, actually Excellence in Bug Disposal and Restore- Oh, man.

Restorer of Office Harmony. So I gave that award to one of my staff. And honestly, I feel like you miss that if you’re not- … in person that particular day. I don’t know. I d- I don’t know that we need to go into the merits or failures of remote work, but I do think that in person is- Yeah

is really critical and beneficial.

Patty Perillo: And I think that you said it, I think it’s about the balance, right? Yeah. It’s not an either/or, it’s about how do you create the balance so you have both/and.

Heather Shea: Yeah. Yeah. So I wanna talk a little bit about how someone who might be listening today might be thinking to themselves my leaders talk about this, but I don’t experience it that way.

And maybe you have some folks in your division that are like, “I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid,” or whatever it is. Like, how do you bring people who are skeptical or tired or distrustful, or who have literally been in pr- previous supervisory or division relationships where they have experienced trauma along into this kind of perspective?

Because I think that’s another challenge that we all face.

Earl Cabellon: Yeah. Pat, Patty, you wanna take this one first? I’ll piggyback off of you.

Patty Perillo: Sure. I first, I would trust them that was their experience. Yeah. A- and I’d wanna learn more about- How is it you feel cared for? Because I think it’s true of lots of humans, like we often care for people in the ways that we wanna be cared for.

And so maybe the leader is caring in a way that’s, I think, really intentional and they’re trying, but it’s not landing for this person because it’s not how the person feels cared for. So I’d wanna better understand a little bit more about what what makes them feel cared for. The other thing that I would say is I think sometimes when that happens, when you’re not feeling like a supervisor’s paying attention to you or a supervisor cares for you, it’s a very real lived experience, but we can get caught in this kind of frozen place of frustration or anger or resentment or whatever it might be, and forget our power, our own power.

And I, I think that if you want a village, you gotta be a villager.

And so I think that… And I’m using that quote from, we just had a staff retreat, and somebody said it, and I wrote it down, and I was like, “I’m gonna use that soon,” and this is the first time I’m using it. I think, it goes back earlier when I said that care is both a community responsibility and an individual responsibility.

And they can be in balance sometimes, and they can be out of balance sometimes, but I think the work of each of us is to try to think about what are the ways that we get them in balance. And I remember when I was a hall director, I realized pretty early on that I had I was, I think l- I had more influence in some ways because of my w- way that I led and who I was connected to than the vice president.

And I was like, “I can help create a better place just by keep doing what I’m doing versus just waiting for somebody else to do it.” And I do not negate at all the power dynamics in situations where leaders absolve themselves and their responsibilities. I get all that, and I don’t say that lightly at all.

And what I wanna do is to empower people to lead in the ways that they hope that they are led because they will then create ripple effects and influence that’s really important.

Earl, what would you add to that or maybe disagree with or change or-

Earl Cabellon: No, I w- I was gonna say the first thing I would say is I believe you.

Patty Perillo: Yeah.

Earl Cabellon: And I would not talk you out of it. Again, bringing in that coaching mindset, that curiosity. What does it mean to be cared for? How do we have better conversations with staff around the things that they’re bringing to us? Because the Earl 10 years ago would come in and problem solve and jump in and save the day and come in solution mode, right?

And as leaders, I think we need to pause and slow down. And when staff are really experiencing that it is our job to, to listen with the most deep empathy, to not feel like we have to solve their problems, but to get really clear is it what are you experiencing in this moment, how is that impacting you, and what choices might you wanna take forward to, get into to some action, right?

And maybe it’s doing what Patty is suggesting, giving the agency back to them and figuring that out. So a- again, I think to the staff member that’s what I would say, that’s how I would show up. And I’m not saying that’s the right or only way, but I think it’s a way that for me has centered the human being who is struggling and getting curious about w- what need is not being met and get clear about that so then they can make the best decision possible they can to take action for their responsibility.

A- as Patty said, it’s an individual responsibility as a villager. I love that. I’m gonna steal that too, Patty. So that’s what I would say.

Heather Shea: I’m thinking about Minecraft villagers right now. I’ve played a lot of Minecraft in my household with two kids who are big gamers. But the villagers crack me up because they’re they’re in it, but they’re NPCs, right?

So they’re, like, roaming around, maybe not doing what they’re supposed to do. I don’t know. Anyway, villagers. Villagers. I’m thinking about this thread around the concept of belonging, and I think maybe in kind of the post-DEI era we’ve moved everything into that category- Yeah … is that we- we’re just gonna talk about belonging because that’s the buzzword right now.

And one of my staff in my office has taught me a lot about this, and she talks about it as like belonging is what we want the institution the condition we want this in- institution to create. But the individual needs to feel like they matter. So mattering is maybe a better approach. We talk about this a lot with students, but I think what do you do with employees, right?

You get them a name tag. You give them a sweatshirt that has your uni- your unit logo on it. But that’s not belonging. What is it that we need to do to infuse belonging for staff,

Earl Cabellon: Yeah. Yeah, it’s such a great question, and so I’ll try to bottom line this. But I think it’s important, like you said, it y- you have to get curious and ask the questions, what does that mean, and what is the impact, and why is this important?

And I think for me, belonging is the feeling that someone is accepted within the group or the- … the staff, right? And I think for us, from the DSA lens, like we try to be intentional about creating communities. And I’ve been trying to create this within our professional development offering in our blueprint, right?

So take the supervisors of student employees, right? 300 of these folks who’ve never been together but yet are doing similar work. And now we have a community coming together every so often to talk about what are the things happening. And we’ve seen collaborations across campus. Someone from Rec will go to Res Life and do a presentation.

And you start to see these things happening. And I think within the belonging conversations we’re doing that. We’re bringing people together so they feel connected. And I know that leaders in our division are also doing the same thing within their units. And again, I think it’s another kind of systems level thing that I think we need to talk more about in student affairs, that we need to be intentional as we design the employee experience.

And I know Dr. Kevin McClure of the Caring University has talked about this. And I think it’s start, it’s our time to start thinking about how we embed it, how do we socialize it, and how do we put it into the fabric of how we want e- employees to experience. And, again I’m gonna shine Patty’s light because I think when we created our team administration team I think that was something that Patty was mindful of, right?

There was a director of finance and IT, and like, where were they living? And, she had the forethought to say, “No this group needs a team. They need to be together.” And it’s created such synergy. Yeah. And again, another free decision that costs nothing, but just curiosity got us to have this sense of belonging as a team and such.

So again, in a bottom line kind of way that’s what I would offer. But-

Heather Shea: Yeah. Patty, what would you say is the difference between institutions that say they value belonging and those that are actually building it within their units?

Patty Perillo: The difference I don’t know if I know the difference in those… what I know to be true for me, Heather, is that I’ve said this before many times, I have left institutions- … because their stated values weren’t their lived values.

And I th- then really it became a part of me that I want to be a leader whose values, my own and the organization’s or division’s, were lived.

When I really do believe- Many, if not all of us, are striving-

Earl Cabellon: Yeah …

Patty Perillo: to create belonging and people mattering, and I believe that to be true. And I think that there are some places that hit the mark and some places that miss the mark. I think that part of what allows us to miss the mark is that if leaders feel like they’ve gotta always get it right?

So I think about the times that staff members, like we’re, I, Earl and I can spend time giving you like 40 examples of things that we’re trying to do, right? And then I’ll be in a space where a person might say they don’t feel like they belong. And I could be like, one response might be like, “You oughta be kidding.

Have you seen this and this and this and this and this and this?” Or what I can do is say, “Help me understand.” Like- … to not run away from it. To sit it, not… To sit in it with them. Like I think lots of times leaders feel like they’ve gotta get it right, and if they’re caught on the carpet, then they’ve gotta show and demonstrate how they’re getting it right.

And I think the places where people feel like they matter and they belong, or they feel seen and they feel heard.

And so when there is pushback, and there will be, ’cause it’s part of the human experience, and actually want it. That- … that just creates a better- That’s healthy. Yeah … that’s exactly right.

That’s exactly right. I think that lots of times people get afraid. I was in a meeting recently with a colleague that literally was challenged, and she turned to her leadership team and was like, “Could someone help me out here?” I was like, “Wow.” Yeah. “How about that?” No judgment. Yeah. It was clear to me this person has to do their work.

They haven’t done their work. Yeah. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said to a colleague like, “I am so sorry that you’re experienced. I am so sorry you felt that way. I’m so sorry that what I said was misunderstood or misinterpreted. I’m sorry, but I wanna… You matter, and I wanna do better.” And so I think being able to do those things means you’ve had to have done a lot of your work.

I often say to people that you can experience a person who’s like this or a person who’s like this, and my sense of the person who’s like this is a person who’s done a lot of their own work. They understand their biases, triggers, reactions. And I want people to experience a responsive leader, not a reactive leader and that really is about doing your work.

So I think mattering cultures where people feel like they belong, and it’s not just about one leader, it’s about lots of leaders. That’s why we’re investing in our people. The other thing I think t- to this is that in the Division of Student Affairs, our vision is every student thrives.

That’s our vision. Every student thrives. None of us are thriving all the time, but we want to create the conditions for students to thrive, and we have very explicit conversations, very explicit, that never happens unless we’re thriving too.

We put students first. We invest in our people. They go hand in hand.

And so I think lots of organizations just do focus on the students, and students, we have to. They’re re- they’re the reason we’re here. May we never forget our students, and it has to be partnered with the investment in our people if you’re committed to learning and belonging and mattering

Heather Shea: That’s great.

So I have two more questions. One is our standard boilerplate closing question, but I- before I get to that I always wanna end with if you had to give advice or if you could give somebody who’s listening to this today something to think about or rethink about that they’re carrying what would you tell that person who maybe just needs to start somewhere?

How would you help them think through how they actualize some of these practices within their spheres of influence on their campuses?

Earl Cabellon: That’s my, my mind is going a million different places, and if I’m gonna bottom line it I think it’s the acknowledgement that there are real things that need to be explored from a systems level approach

And I think that’s gonna be… That’s a hard thing, right? And I would just ask people to get curious about it. What is being rewarded in your department that may not be said? Why haven’t we updated Suzy’s job description after seven years and she’s talking about burnout?

And we didn’t fill that position, yada yada.

So I, I would just ask from a systems, if you’re a leader listening, get curious about what’s, what systems may be arising in your culture that may be tripping you up, in addition to how do we support supervisors as well, and getting curious about their needs and what excellence and supervision looks like for your institution would be my two things.

Heather Shea: That’s great.

Patty Perillo: I’m like Earl, I’ve got just a thousand ideas and I’m trying to, pull one. I think it goes back to what I said earlier, that caring is both institutional or community responsibility as well as an indi- individual responsibility. So if one of my colleagues around the country is listening to this and they’re not feeling cared for or they wanna be in an environment where there’s a greater sense of care, I would begin with self.

I would begin to ask myself the questions, what are the things that I need in my life to feel more cared for, or paid attention to, or I mattered? Or what are the things that are happening that don’t make me feel that way? To get really clear because as we get more clear about what those things are, we help visualize them, we can help step into them and bring them forward.

And I would ask that once we do some of that self work, that we talk to a trusted colleague or an ombudsperson or a colleague like Earl who, who you can talk to about everything and anything. So that first some of that self work would be done and at the same time, that they might lead even their own efforts or speak up about institutional or divisional efforts that aren’t creating the conditions for people to do really well and right

Heather Shea: I, as you were talking about that, I was thinking about how, we use the phrase, hurt people.

Patty Perillo: Yeah.

Heather Shea: Cared for people care for people.

Patty Perillo: Yes.

Heather Shea: And so doing that for yourself, gathering care around you and I think the resources on our campuses are tremendous, right? So if you have an e- employee assistance program on your campus, or you have some kind of ombuds the ombuds office is always a great resource.

I think about, utilizing those ’cause they’re free, right? Often part, a part of your employee benefit plan is accessing those resources. I love the doing your own work. And then I think the piece about the systems level approach, right? We talk on my campus a lot about how we’re not here to fix students, we’re here to fix the institution.

Patty Perillo: That’s right.

Heather Shea: So that every student can learn, thrive, and graduate. So what does that mean to have an institutional deficit response versus a student deficit response? Yeah. Flipping that to-

Patty Perillo: That’s right … the student. And Heather, one of the things that we say very similar to what you say, w- we say that we, it’s not that the institution is ready for the students to be ready, we want…

Wait, how do we say it? Let me see this right. I think for a long time we were focused on making sure students were ready for the institution- … versus the institution ready for the students, right? And so that, that switch is is really positive and very affirming. And that’s a systems level approach, right?

That’s-

Heather Shea: Yeah …

Patty Perillo: and it’s not a deficit, it’s a growth, it’s the growth model, Yeah … which is really important.

Heather Shea: Yeah. This brings us to the end of our conversation. I always love to end with this podcast is called Student Affairs Now, what are you thinking about, pondering, considering now? And then if you would like people to get in touch with you share your LinkedIn or whatever you would like to share.

And Patty, I’ll start with you.

Patty Perillo: What am I thinking about? I got into this profession, first generation college student where education transformed me, and I knew that I wanted to stay in education to make sure that the Patty Prillas of the world didn’t get lost ’cause I could’ve gotten totally lost as a first generation college student.

And I also knew it was a privilege a privilege to be educated, and with that privilege came lots of responsibility. And so what I spend my time still thinking about is what are the ways that I continue to invest in human development. There is no doubt in our jobs, not just vice presidents, but all of our jobs, the administrative responsibility, the, the reports, the deadlines, the, the, whether it’s people are trying to get you through Messenger or text messages or G- G Chats or e- like it just comes at us, right?

It’s so easy for all of that to take us away from our central why, our central calling, our central purpose. And so what I still think a lot about is how am I making the world more humane and just? What is my responsibility to do and how do I continue to invest in human development so that people thrive, communities thrive, and institutions thrive?

Heather Shea: Thank you so much, Patty.

Patty Perillo: Thank you, Heather.

Earl Cabellon: Beautiful.

Heather Shea: Beautiful. Earl, how about you? What are you thinking about, pondering, considering?

Earl Cabellon: Yeah, very similar to Patty. I think my lens is the responsibility that I have to the Earl Cabellons out there who look like me that haven’t got a seat at the table.

And I remember vividly in my time I said, “When I get to this level, I will lead in ways that will support the Earls who wanted to advance and wanted to get to this level.” And I’m pondering that. I’m fighting for it. And I think it goes back to why we’re here today, is to talk about this creating communities of courage and care.

And for me, as a Filipino American male the responsibility that I have to others, for people of color, to be at the seat and at the table is a immense responsibility that I hold so dearly, and I will continue to do this work and do it in thoughtful and caring ways. So that’s what I’m pondering.

Patty Perillo: And doing. Not just pondering. You’re doing.

Earl Cabellon: Yeah.

Patty Perillo: Heather, what about you? What are you pondering?

Heather Shea: Oh, my goodness. I think right now we’re in this period of hiring, and so I’m really thinking about what you were talking about, Earl, of like how we onboard people and bring people into a community.

We have multiple new leaders coming into our institution, and I’m, I have two t- new team members joining my team. So I’m thinking a lot about w- who do I wanna be and how do I wanna show up as a leader within the space as we move into our next kind of annual cycle. It’s downtime right now.

Yeah. But that gives you a lot of time to think and ponder. Which I love it is very clear to me why the University of Maryland College Park is one of the most promising places to work in student affairs. It is such a joy to spend time with you both today. And I am so grateful for just learning from your wisdom, hearing your experiences.

Thank you for sharing your perspectives. It’s awesome. And yeah, for everybody else who’s watching and listening, thank you for joining us on Student Affairs NOW. If you enjoyed this episode, one of the best ways you can support Student Affairs NOW is by subscribing, leaving us a five-star review, sharing this conversation with a colleague, maybe hosting a watch party on your campus.

And if you’re watching on YouTube, be sure to like the video, subscribe to our channel, and share it with others. That helps our algorithm bring this information to more people. As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, you can connect more deeply with us in Student Affairs NOW community through our Patreon.

We have always been more than just a podcast. We’re a learning community for people who care about higher education and student affairs. So through our Patreon, you will find discussion guides, facilitated book clubs, bonus content, and other opportunities to engage with colleagues and continue the conversation.

So if this idea- if this podcast have ever sparked an idea, challenged your thinking, or helped you feel more connected to the field, we’d love to have you join us, and you can find out more at patreon.com/studentaffairsnow. Huge shout-out as always to Nat Ambrosey, our incredible producer. Nat, your behind-the-scenes brilliance makes every episode possible, and we are so grateful for you.

And finally, to all of our listeners and viewers thank you for being a part of our learning community. I’m Heather Shea. Thanks for watching and listening. Take care of yourselves, take care of one another, and let’s make it a great week

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