Vernon Wall:
Ya know, when I think about my primary care physician, and I know that my primary care physician who I love went to med school. I do. I also hope that this person continues to grow and learn in the profession so that I am healthy because if they’re only thinking about their experience in their med school and not keeping up to date with what’s going on in the world over the years, then I don’t know if I’m going to be healthy. I use that analogy because I think of that in terms of professional associations, I believe we all get a grounding in some sort of way of caring about students and being connected in a college and university experience. And then I believe what happens is we continue to grow and learn. And so we do that through professional associations. What does it look like in order to engage each other, to continue to grow and learn as trends, shift and change as we continue to navigate the landscape of higher education, I believe that professional associations allow us to be the best professionals that we can possibly be.

Keith Edwards:
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs Now. I’m your host Keith Edwards today we’re discussing student affairs, professional associations with leaders of ACPA and NASPA. Student Affairs Now is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Today’s episode is brought to you by Stylus. Visitstyluspub.com and use promo code SANow for 30% off and free shipping. This episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape, go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a just, caring, and thriving world. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns. Are he him, his I’m a speaker consultant and coach. And you can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m coming to you from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota in the Ojibwe Peoples. I’m really excited to have the former guests today and a robust and rigorous and fun and energetic conversation to be sure let’s get started and hear from our panelists and guests. Just tell us a little bit about you and your role and a little bit about your experience with ACPA and NASPA and Vernon. We’re going to go ahead and start with you.

Vernon Wall:
Thanks Keith Vernon Wall. He him pronouns. I’m coming to you from Washington DC, the ancestral homelands of many native indigenous tribes, but primarily the Piscataway and the Anacostia. I and the I’m the current, I wouldn’t say I’m the immediate past president of ACPA college student educators international. I’m also the director of business development for LeaderShape. So thanks for mentioning us as a sponsor. And I’m also president and founder of one better world LLC. And one of the founding faculty members of this social justice training Institute. I’m happy to be here. I’ve been a member actually of both associations since graduate school ACPA and NASPA, and this is going to be a robust conversation. Excited.

Keith Edwards:
Great. Thanks Vernon. Angela, tell us a little bit.

Angela Batista:
Hi everybody. I’m Angela Batista. She her, ella prounouns. I am coming to you from Lake Worth Florida. The land of the quest and Seminole tribes. I’m really excited to be with this group today. Love hanging out with these colleagues, our colleagues. I’ve been in higher ed for a lot of years, like all of us in this call. And I have been in both in both ACPA and NASPA, formerly NASPA through my leadership on the immediate past chair for the board. And I, I’m currently working I’m the founder and president of Batista consulting services and I’m also the former vice-president of student affairs and institutional DNI at Champlain College in Vermont. So really excited to be and looking forward to the conversation.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you. Go ahead, Julie.

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
All right. Well, good afternoon, everyone. I’m Julie Payne-Kirchmeier. She, her pronouns. I’m currently the vice president for student affairs at Northwestern University. And I also serve as the current board chair for NASPA. I too have been involved in both associations not since grad school or no NASPA since grad school, but not ACPA. I kind of came to ACPA a little later and really enjoyed the, the richness of both associations and they have so much that, that they offer our profession. And this is why I really love the fact that we are all here today. I also just want to say that I’m coming to you all from Evanston, Indiana. Listen to me, I don’t even know the state I’m in Illinois, right? It’s kinda day y’all’s a quarter system we just finished on Monday. So you all know where I am, right. But Evanston, Illinois and that is the traditional homelands of The three fires, the Ojibwe, the Ottawa, and the Potowamy , as well as the Miami Ho-Chunk and nations as well as dozens of other tribes that treated this area and still do to this day as a site of trading travel and healing. So I’m excited about the conversation.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you. And over to you, Danielle, hi

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
Hi everybody, Danielle Morgan Acosta, she, her pronouns. I serve as the current ACPA president and I work as the associate Dean of students for student engagement at Clark University in Western, Massachusetts, the ancestral homelands of the Nitma people. I am super excited for this conversation. My first involvement with the professional associations was asked, so actually receiving a scholarship to attend the ACPA NASPA joint convention as a first-year graduate student. And so while primarily my involvement has been with ACPA in varying capacities, supporting mostly our new professionals and younger professionals, and then getting involved been able to connect with both associations throughout my career. So just excited to have some conversation about where higher ed is going and what we’ve been doing for the past year and how we can really talk about the constant and community pieces that show up in our professional associations for our members.

Keith Edwards:
Well, thanks to all of you for those introductions. And maybe I should say, you know, I’ve been like Vernon since graduate school been a member of both ACPA and NASPA. I think Vernon was in graduate school a little bit before I was but he can tell you all about that. But I have been a member of both associations, but really primarily my involvement, my engagement has been with ACPA through commissions and starting the commission for social justice educators. And when Vernon was in the international office and ICA and conventions and all sorts of fun stuff. So I’m really excited for this conversation because I think these associations are something that most student affairs professionals know about. They’re often unclear and unsure and curious, and maybe even a little bit intimidated. So I’m excited to us unpack this all a little bit and help folks who maybe want to be more connected learn a little bit more. Let’s start though with just professional association involvement in general, or here we have leaders from ACPA and NASPA, but there’s so many more from ACUHO-I and NODA and probably an infinite number if we wanted to start unpacking all of those for those who are new to student affairs and prayer, perhaps grad students, new professionals, or even undergraduates who are considering student affairs. Could you tell us a little bit about the value of engaging in professional associations in lots of different ways vulnerable, we’ll kick it off with you.

Vernon Wall:
And you know what I think about my primary care physician, and I know that my primary care physician who I love went to med school. I do. I also hope that this person continues to grow and learn in the profession so that I am healthy because if they’re only thinking about their experience in their med med school and not keeping up to date with what’s going on in the world over the years, then I don’t know if I’m going to be healthy. I use that analogy because I think of that in terms of professional association I believe we all get a grounding in some sort of way of caring about students and being connected in a college and university experience. And then I believe what happens is we continue to grow and learn. And so we do that through professional associations. What does it look like in order to engage each other, to continue to grow and learn as trends, shift and change as we continue to navigate the landscape of higher education, I believe that professional associations allow us to be the best professionals that we can possibly be.

Keith Edwards:
That’s really great. Julie, you want to tell us a little bit more about engagement and professional associations in general?

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
Yeah, I appreciate that lens Vernon on the value. And anytime somebody gives me a good analogy, you know, I’m all in, and I love that primary care physician analogy. I would have gone the route of an attorney only because my mother is an attorney and so similar concept, right. But that whole idea about continuing to grow and develop and gain deeper understanding about the work that we, I will say are called to do, because this is not something we typically, we may stumble into it at the beginning, but when you stick with it, there are some element of a connection to your value in the why behind this work. I’ll also say that it also helps to give you perspective. You know, if you, if you stay within your campus and all, you know, is your campus, and all, you know is your division.

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
You may be missing some things. It’s not just about your own growth and development, but perspective about student experiences across the board. You know, if you’re at an elite institution, you should like I am right now, how do you really begin to understand how students are navigating different environments, different institutional environments, different things that they have even navigated before they have come to you because we have folks transfer all the right. And so the more we understand the breadth and the depth of our students’ experiences, the better professionals we’re going to be. And the other thing is, I really think these professional homes give you a community of care and support for this very challenging and intense work that we do. And that, that is priceless. As far as I’m concerned, I have leaned on all the folks on this call, one way shape or another actively and passively at times when we’ve needed it the most. And that’s really where you can find your people in the calling that you do.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah, I’ll add to that. I think my first ACPA Jonathan Pullard was doing the intro welcome for new members at sort of the, the orientation. And I remember him saying get involved, get engaged. The people you’ll meet through this will become some of the best friends you’ll have in your life. And I remember thinking you made your best friends through a professional association, like get a life. Like, what are you talking about? Don’t you have like real friends. And, and now 20 years later, some of my best friends in my life, are people who I met by being on a convention team together, or being on a commission with or other involvement or a task force and you know, planning meetings and site visits and all the fun things you get to do and those connections, and then you become friends on social media.

Keith Edwards:
And then next thing you know, you’re meeting children and then you happen to be in their town and you meet up for breakfast and they become people in your life. And so, yes, the learning, the ongoing professional development, but those relationships are really great too. Let’s chat a little bit more specifically about ACPA and NASPA love to give Julie hand Danielle, the very difficult tasks. Could you kind of summarize each of your associations that you’re currently leading and maybe two minutes, we won’t time you, but if you could try and Julia, we’re going to kick it off with you and NASPA, do your best, give it a shot two minutes.

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
Okay, great. No, seriously. I appreciate the opportunity to do this. Even given the breadth of this conversation we’re going to have and I’ll always go back to like our mission and our description. And so when I think about NASPA and our mission is to drive innovation and evidence based student centered practice throughout higher ed. And when we think about, you know, the scope of NASPA being an equity minded, place-based caring and member centered organization globally, and really supporting a diverse and a passionate group of around 15,000 members at all various levels in student affairs in higher education, you know, we talk about being a voice in student affairs and we are, but we know we welcome so many different folks as does ACPA from different walks within higher education that are entering their work around students. Right. and then, you know, we think about our values too. I think when you talk about associations and describing them, when you go to their values, that tells you a lot about the association. So we do all this work through the lens of inclusion, integrity, inquiry, and innovation. And when I think about the needs of student affairs have, and that our students have those four values really speak to me in a way that makes my membership and NASA incredibly meaningful, because that’s the way that we do our work every day. So that’s a little facet and I think I did it in two minutes.

Keith Edwards:
I wasn’t talking to you, but that was very, very good. Now you’re really put the pressure on Danielle going back to the mission and values and alliteration is maybe the other value there with all those eyes. So Danielle, tell us a little bit about ACPA here succinctly.

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
Yeah. So ACPA is boldly transforming higher education, and we are rooted in student development, racial justice, and decolonization. And for me a piece in addition to the perspective that Julie brought is we really provide a collective voice nationally, right? You need to understand what’s going on at different campuses so that you can advocate on your campus and that we can advocate nationally or internationally regarding positive, sustainable change for practitioners, scholars in institutions to better foster college student learning. I’d say we do that in three ways, community and connection. So our ways to get involved locally through functional areas, through job trajectory, through identity and volunteer voices that help us lead with what is needed now by our people which I think is a different way to approach the work than we get to do it in our day jobs often through our incredible research and scholarship that allows for that data and allows for understanding and that continual growth and for professional development and ongoing learning through convention and institutes and webinars, but also that community piece in thinking about our competencies collectively and my favorite, which is to compliment the work that you’re doing in your day job to get to where you want to go next. And so it really becomes that home in that community for you.

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
Danielle, I love that you’re, you’re talking about ways in which I’m thinking about like the strategic plan for NASPA. And we could really just draw like some, and it’s, I love how aligned we are, but the way that we get there is uniquely our associations. That’s so important. 

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
So important for us to have both of those different ways to do the work right, to find voice, or to think about the ways that we can kind of go in and create change because we need both to push and pull, to get us to where we need to go. Like every social movement ever has, right. Multiple insert points to kind of get us to where we need to be. 

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
If I could, high-five your box. I would, but I think you’re down here for me. Yeah.

Keith Edwards:
It depends on where people are. Excellent. Well, you two did a great job of sort of summarizing these large complex organizations. It does beg the question though, why two association. So why does student affairs have these two generalists, large associations? Let’s hear from Vernon and Angela on this Vernon, why two associations?

Vernon Wall:
It’s interesting that you asked that Keith because I think all of us can say when we speak to graduate students, that one of the questions that will always come up is why is there ACPA and NASPA? And my response is always why not because every industry has multiple associations that really engage on professional development. What I love about having ACPA and NASPA, but it’s, for me personally, I remember different times in my career. I’ve found more connection with professional development from NASPA than I have from ACPA and other times ACPA and other times, and also two functional areas. Thinking about when I worked in housing ACUHO-I, I was very connected for me. And then I moved on and was working in student activities and leadership development. So NACDA. So there’s just such a great opportunity to move around and within the association to do the thing to really truly engage. And I love what Danielle and Julie mentioned earlier about the ways in which we can all do the work so that we can be even more impactful in higher education, if we’re all having a great work.

Angela Batista:
I agree, Vernon. I think that, you know, I think about the different development stages in my own professional growth and how at different times I needed just a different kind of setting or a different kind of resource. And I think what I love is that there’s a diversity in what both our, our associations offer that has a lot of commonality, like we just talked about, but also that is very specific to a culture that we’ve created over years. And so I would say that when I get that question, I always say, you know, it really is a matter of relationship and heart, and sometimes you go to a convention or a conference and he makes you feel like, oh, this is, these are my people. This is my, my place. And for that time in your life and in your development, it really works.

Angela Batista:
But as you move in your, in your development, sometimes you want something else. And we do that through institutes through a variety of things. So I always say that it is important to be flexible and to not put your eggs all in one basket. So this is the same for me. Like it’s about being open and knowing that we have a lot of cross identity and cross sharing in our associations, and that makes us really have more of a rich experience as members. A lot of us are members of both associations, many go to both conferences, skip one conference one year, go to the next, it all works because we really meet the both associations, I think, meet us where we are. And I really love that. And so I love having that flexibility. And it’s a point of inclusion for me.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thank you. I really am thinking about Vernon’s comment about not just the difference, the optioning between associations, but the optioning within, from coalitions and commissions with ACPA to knowledge communities, to convention planning and program and presenting to national conferences to some of the smaller institutes or things there’s just lots of different ways. If you’re feeling you want a smaller experience and a large conference is overwhelming to some of the many virtual things that both associations are doing now, webinars so accessible and I assume will continue to happen, which does bring us to one of the elephants in the room. I think we just talked about one another one is, it’s been a, it’s been a tough time to be a professional association when you cannot come together and gather, and that becomes difficult. And how do you function as a business entity?

Keith Edwards:
How do you serve the members needs when coming together in ways that we’ve traditionally done is not possible at the same time you have a membership needs and the professional needs are changing so dramatically and so drastically and so quickly. None of us knew how to do this two years ago. We all are doing it now. As we talked about on a previous podcast we pivoted it doesn’t mean we did it well, we pivoted and doing it well is I think a different thing. So I I’d love to hear from you and Angela, we’ll start with you. What’s it been like leading this association and the challenges that you’ve faced really in the past year and a half?

Angela Batista:
I think that that’s a really rich question. And not unlike all the campuses that our colleagues are at. We really had to both pivot to use that language that we use so much the past 18 months but really continue to write. And I think as a professional, we’re still doing that. It will do that for me. You know, it really was about releasing if there were any preconceived ideas particularly about this is what I want the whole of my chair year to be. It really is about figuring out how do I hold on to what’s important to me and what the association and I thought we would achieve and work on this year when we have to make adjustments. And so I think NASPA as a whole did a really great job of really connecting to our membership and taking our lead from what our members said they needed, which I think, you know, Vernon and I met periodically throughout the year.

Angela Batista:
And it was really helpful to just be able to talk about, oh, you know, how do I sort of keep doing this work? And there’s no playbook. I just did a podcast the other day. And one of the VPs I was talking to said, there’s no playbook. You just have to be okay with not having a playbook. And so that’s the number one thing that I think was really important. I also think the importance of being real, but not sort of drowning in negativity about the future of the profession and really focusing on opportunities was really key and continues to be, and looking at what we have learned that will help us through technology and all the things that we are doing that we never thought we could do in student affairs that now may be come part of how we do things.

Angela Batista:
And so I would say that as a leader, it was really challenging. It was also very enlightening. And I learned a about myself. I felt like people had to stretch out of their comfort zone in ways that they didn’t anticipate being uncomfortable before. And to me, that was a new level of sort of how we build that muscle. And so it’s really exciting and I’m really excited to see how we continue to evolve as a result of all the things that we’ve learned that we still are processing by the way, right? Like we still don’t have a full control. And so for me, it was really about being in touch with members, keeping the organization’s top priorities in mind and keeping the pulse on all those things. Even if the scale and depth of the work did not match what I thought he would about when I started. I love

Keith Edwards:
This notion that you talked about, about being real, being genuine, being authentic without being sort of self-indulgent lean negative and talking about all the hard things that you’re facing and the challenges do you have, like, what do you have a thing that you call that being real without being

Angela Batista:
Well, I do a lot of appreciative inquiry work. I’m certified in that. And to me, that’s what it means that you’re looking at the reality and trying to really leverage the strengths. So I really talk it’s really a growth and positive mindset that it’s not dismissive of. What’s negative of heart, but, you know, it’s an inclusive growth mindset where you’re really looking at, if you don’t sort of see the reality, what can you use in your reality to build up from that instead of just reacting to, so that’s one way I think about it. 

Keith Edwards:
That’s great. What a wonderful gift. Yeah. Tara Brach talks about not arguing with reality, which as soon as you hear that you realize all the times today, you’ve been arguing with reality about the news, the weather, other people, your schedule, all sorts of those things.

Angela Batista:
Choose your battles wisely. 

Keith Edwards:
That’s right. That’s right. Vernon. Could you say a little bit about ACPA, want to spend like as you were leading ACPA through, through most of this I mean, you probably waited your whole life to be ACPA president, and then all of a sudden the COVID, we’ll just throw COVID on top of that. You want to do over.

Vernon Wall:
Yeah. It’s so funny. My mother mentioned to me at the beginning of my president, she said, you’re such an overachiever, leave it to you to be president of an association during multiple pandemics. I said, yeah, thank you. You know, but, and Angela’s right. We did have, I would say the support that Angela gave me during this time, it was very, very, very helpful. I mean, just the conversations that we had, we just, we just were being with each other and just, and I, I do believe that we knew that each other, there was no one else that could really have the conversations that we could have. And so I do want to thank you Angela for that. Yes. It’s, you know, I will say that we need to realize that student affairs and higher education has been tested many times in our history we have been, and what I’ve loved about us, we’ve always stepped up.

Vernon Wall:
We’ve always stepped up and that’s what student affairs folks did on college campuses around the world and the country. They stepped up. And I believe that gave me the hope and the faith to get through this. We had a wonderful governing board who really, and truly met. I remember my first governing board meeting. I was so nervous in March. I thought, I mean, I think it was 1st of April, I was thinking nobody’s going to want to gather with me with everything happening on their campuses. They’re just, I mean, I was, but what I found was two hours of respite. People wanted that community, that connection that love, and it was just an exhaling and people would gather each month and we would talk then about what’s next, similar to Angela, we’ve focused on member needs. We focused on what do you need right now? What can we do?

Vernon Wall:
We sent out once a month, a member needs survey so we can track what was happening. And that was really good data that we got to see, you know, where the budget cuts were, what was going on with travel, what was going on with professional development. And then we provided as NASPA did online experiences and they were well received. So we, we, I do believe, and once again, for our virtual experience where I would have loved to have been in Long Beach California, but to have the energy of the people and I attended the NASPA experience, also the energy was just, you could read the chats and just get so excited because people just want it to be in community. And so it was really about navigating the, the realities of what was going on. And I want to make sure we’ve noticed it was multiple pandemics. Folks were talking how we really, and truly we’ll continue to do that as we move forward.

Keith Edwards:
And I love what you said about you just found people, your governing board wanting community and connection. And that’s what, that’s what I see the rest of us want is community and connection. How can I find that? And that’s what I see students wanting. They still are desperate for community and connection, the frivolous stuff. They’re like, don’t waste my time, but if you can offer me community and connection in whatever way, whether it’s virtual, in person, whether it’s distance, whether it’s some sort of connection really craving that. There’s so many ways that our professional associations mirror that the campus experience. And that’s just another one of those. Julie, did you want to jump in there and add something?

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
Oh yeah, sure. I, one of the things I keep hearing, and I know when the four of us had a different conversation a few months ago, one of the things that kept saying and kept coming back to was this whole concept of critical hope. And so, you know, when you talk about being real, right but also not spiraling down to negativity will critical hope balances, those things, realistic look without losing what could be the vision of what it would be. So you’re questioning to get to that point. And I think Vernon, when you talk about multiple pandemics, right? Every single one of them has to be approached through the lens of critical hope. Not to the point of going to toxic positivity, which is the root of that negative spiral. Well, which I also know we can sometimes fall into that trap. We want to make everything okay. So that’s why I keep coming back to that phrase and the meaning behind critical hope that that’s what we’ve been doing. And we be the student affairs tends to be the keepers of that on our campuses as folks sort of vacillate sort of all of the different things that occur in the traumas that occur when you’re navigating at a time like this.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Thank you for that. Well what does the future hold Danielle and Julie, you got the Baton passed you in the middle of a global pandemic. So you had to clean up that, and now you’re going into this great unknown where everybody’s going to want to go back to what they’re familiar with because we’re human beings, but also what we’re familiar with, we want to not go back. We want to move forward. What’s what’s on the horizon. What can members and potential members expect from these two associations going forward? Danielle let’s begin with you.

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
Yeah, well, and I think Julie started to talk about it, right? Like if you didn’t think that student affairs work was critical on your campus the past 18 months hopefully opened some eyes and I can talk later about, I have some concerns about how we’re going to pay those folks and what that’s going to look like because our folks are hurting. Our folks are hurting, right? Because we did it and we made it work. And I always think about it. Like when we look at our planners in five years from the past 18 months who we know, will we even remember any of it, cause it’s all been a blur. I do think that our professional associations are getting stronger through all of this because of that great need of community. We saw that constantly throughout everything that was going on, they needed a place to feel loved and to feel seen because they weren’t getting that from work.

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
They weren’t getting it in the places that they knew how to relax and kind of decompress. And so our associations have been that for folks. And for changing our associations, it’s grounded in research and scholarship. That’s going to be critical. That is also focused on racial justice and inclusion. And we talked to one of our first kind of open sessions during COVID that it is often in times of crisis that we missed the most marginalized that we, who are the people in the room that are making the quick decisions to help us pivot and how are we not capturing the folks that really need to get connected. And I think that with campuses vastly changing or changing back, or trying to live with COVID the financial implications that are going to lead to systems that struggle, we need to be the advocates and the place to provide benefits to individuals, to departments, to divisions, to institutions and higher ed, more broadly to make sure that we are focusing on what really matters right now, which is our people and making sure that our students are getting the resources and the services that they need and deserve, which are going to be inclusive.

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
And I think ACPA is continue to do that. Just like NASPA is through our professional development, both virtual and in-person, we were open to some piece, right? But I think we have a more dynamic kind of opportunity with the ways that we connect people and provide information that community connection and space for healing. That’s huge for our association. It continues to be the place that people go for those relationships and those friendships and the unapologetic advocacy and change work that ACPA will continue to do through our strategic plan for our strategic imperative on racial justice and decolonization. And really our focus of building up leaders and members to prepare them for what’s next. We’ve always really been focused on that growth pieces. And how does that connect in this beauty as we get closer to our hundred years as an association.

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
And so as a historian, right? Thinking about the a hundred years from now in this moment, what the country and the world was going on with going through with additional pandemics and thinking about where we are now and how we came out of that and how we were bonded and created, I think will give us some sustaining power to really think about the ways that we engage folks and make meaning while also pushing forward. We didn’t, we didn’t stop very much throughout the pandemics, right. We continue to move things forward, maybe at a slower pace than we originally anticipated. The goals got shifted. But we’re continuing to do that work. And I think we’ll continue to do it with more gusto because the need is just so important. Right? Right.

Keith Edwards:
Well, and some shifting modalities too, right. I love Vernon talking about community and connection. And then you’re talking about wanting the association to offer opportunities for love and healing. You can see these are not just large monolithic organizations. They really are people and human centered. So I love that you’re bringing this in Julie, tell us a little bit about what you see on the horizon and going forward to meet the complex needs of, of student affairs professionals and ultimately the students on campus.

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
I don’t think it’s going to surprise anybody when I say it’s very similar to what Danielle just outlined are two associations that serve a robust yet similar population. And so, you know, everything that she just outlined, I do want to echo though the idea about this ethos of care and love. That I think one of the things that we have, I will say, oh, we’ll get into. And I don’t mean just NASPA. I mean, in general as a field of student affairs is that we’ve always had that ethos of care and love for our students, but it’s imperative that we have it for each other and our staff is creating these spaces for healing. And so when I look to the future, I mean, we’ve been talking about this in alignment with our upcoming conference in other ways, how do we mark these moments?

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
How do we acknowledge what’s been happening this compounding collective trauma and how it has been showing up and the impact that it’s had on us as people. And then how does that in turn influence the work that we do? I also know that we’re we’re digging into, or we just sent the survey out and got all the responses back. And we’re continuing to dive into this idea about what’s the future of student affairs me to look like, or what will this taskforce that’s been identified as doing some deep work around that? I think will help inform us about what we do need to focus on. And one of the things though that I know we’re hearing loud and clear, and Danielle, you mentioned it, and it’s a concern for all of us is this value that student affairs brings to a campus.

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
And as you said, so wonderfully, if you didn’t think we were critical before, you know, darn well we’re mission critical now, but then how does that show up in showing the value within the context of higher education? So I see both of these associations leaning into advocacy around that creation of tool kits for leaders on campuses, on how we advocate on our, in our spaces to say, Hey, the work that’s happening in student affairs and this unit real similar to what’s happening in that academic unit, why is the pay differential so high? Right. We really lean into showcasing the value reminding advocating for our staff so that it’s not just more of the same where we go back to sleep after this. And we continue to see the levels of burnout that I’ve been seeing for quite some time has got exacerbated. You know, any pandemic will highlight the gaps. This didn’t just, it was like a Batman spotlight right who was here, who was not

Keith Edwards:
Right well, and we as student affairs professionals count on leaders of both of these associations to be our advocates with other higher ed associations, with faculty, with the provost, with deans, with the others. And then also with public policy, with advocacy, with legislation, with all of the things, the rulemaking that happens that affects so much of us, but, but you’re right. We’re, we’re having people who are, who are tired and if they’re not burned out, they can see it from here. And how do they do that recovery? And how do we communicate the value? Not just words and gestures, but really seeing the value and paying people to value and honoring their time. And then also what got cleaned up, what kind of silliness that we stopped doing over the past year that maybe we don’t need to go back to if we said, no, we can’t do these things because we’re so focused on these things. Maybe, maybe what can we let go of? And I think that’s one of the things that student affairs we’re notoriously good at coming up with new ideas and innovation and creative. We always have like six new projects over the summer that we want to implement. Where, how do we be editorial and let go of some things we can focus that,

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
Okay. How do we let go of things that we were the incubator for and find its right home. Right?

Keith Edwards:
Great. Well, we are running out of time, which we knew we would. But I’d love to hear from each of the four of you. The podcast is Student Affairs Now. We’d love to hear what you’re thinking, troubling, pondering. Maybe it’s something from this conversation or just something that’s just weighing on you at this moment. And then we’d also love for you to start with folks who may want to reach out to you and get in contact with you. What’s, what’s the best way for folks to connect with you. So let’s go with Angela first. What’s what’s on you now

Angela Batista:
So much, especially given all the things we just talked about, but I would say two things that stand out the most from my work with student affairs leaders right now is around the re-entry and recovery, the ongoing recovery, right? The expectations and adjustments that will need to be made after so much impact, you know, from how I transitioned from working at home, to doing meeting expectations of students and stakeholders on campus. And the other part that I really I’m reflecting a lot about is our workforce piece. And you we’ll touch on a bit of, you know, sort of the burnout thing. We, our taskforce at NASPA is really looking into sort of what the people think they need. And you know what I’m really confronting when I talk to clients, particularly through my coaching in organizational consulting where our people, there are a lot of people that are re-examining their careers, what do they want to do?

Angela Batista:
How do they see their pathways? You know, how do we invite you new people to come into student affairs who now have a different understanding of what it is or can be. And so those are things that I think are going to continue to present. And so I’m continuing to, to explore and I really have enjoyed this conversation and if people want to follow me, they can look me up at drangelabatista.com and I’m on Twitter @DrAngelaBatista. So follow me around and I look forward to connecting.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thank you for that. That’s wonderful. Vernon. How about you? What’s what’s on your mind now?

Vernon Wall:
Well, it’s interesting because pre COVID. August would always be the Vernon Wall tour where I would be on so many campuses, you know, doing trainings, orientations of residence, life, you name it. And so right now I’m having these conversations with campuses as I prepare to, to do some great work. I hope on campuses in August, what I’m noticing though is I don’t think our professionals are ready for the energy that will be coming to campus around equity and inclusion. Our students are gonna light up these campuses. They are ready. And what’s interesting is that student affairs professionals right now, we’re focusing on what I can do for their students and not what we can do for each other, because what needs to be happening between now and August, are conversations with faculty and staff, to prepare them for the energy that will be coming to campus.

Vernon Wall:
Keep in mind, students have not forgot about March and before, because keep in mind, there’s much that’s happened that has led up to this and many things that will continue to happen over the summer. And so I’m just asking that we prepare ourselves, please, please, please have these conversations around decolonization, around racial justice, around social justice with each other to be prepared for this. And yeah, please, you know, if you need me @vernonawall, the a in the middle, for Insta and Twitter, I love saying insta because I seem so cool. And vernon.wall@gmail.com and vernonwall.org, but anywhere, let me know what I can do. Absolutely. And this has been phenomenal. I love these people so much. So I just love this. Thank you.

Keith Edwards:
The rest of us are wondering what you need to do to become more cool. That’s a little mind blowing to me. So thank you, Vernon. Danielle, what is on you? What your mind and heart now, and where can folks connect with you?

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
Yeah, it’s a lot of the same things that people have been talking about. I will say we’ve been very COVID focused and the changes to title nine are coming right. And being able to be an advocate to kind of change some pieces that we’ve had. There is a space that is on my head and my heart and spirit. It really does go back though, how are we taking care of our people? They’re the most critical resource. They are our focus and point of the work that we do. And we have to take care of our people to take care of our students. And so the financial rub of taking care of staff and taking care of students expanding services and changing processes while institutions are going to be cash strapped and trying to be fiscally responsible. And what does that mean? When our student affairs staff we’re the folks that were there when nobody else was and continue to always be the people that are there when nobody else is.

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
I also think that we’ve got to practice our humility a little bit as institutions generally, like we all worked incredibly hard. We all did the best that we could. And in many places that was not enough. It continues to not be enough. And our students keep calling us out on it, not being enough. And I have noticed that because we were all paying and all exhausted and we’re all like, but we did the best we could. It makes us really defensive instead of really helping us think about where are we going moving forward and how can we own that and be okay with where we’ve been and do it better. I think that is also tied to, we’ve got to figure out a way for folks to get some rest, because while there is some joy and anticipation in going back to some familiar and living with COVID in different ways, that is another pivot of an already exhausted group of folks that are trying to rethink things.

Danielle Morgan Acosta:
And as Vernon talks about in terms of equity and inclusion, there’s a lot of personal work that needs to be done by our staff and our faculty and our higher ed administrators that often can’t be done when you’re exhausted and tired and defensive. And so we’ve got to work through some of those pieces. But also what’s on my spirit too, is this like my positive restlessness right. Like the opportunity for folks to be able to be together again. And what does that mean for the energy and the connection and the opportunity for us to kind of feel like, oh, we’ve done this and we have our people to help us continue to get through it. So I’m excited about that. I can be found @ACPApres on Instagram and Twitter, @drDemo924 on Twitter, or my ACPA email is kind of all over the website as well. And so I’m interested to have more conversations with everybody and so excited that we were able to get together today.  

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate your, your note about w how easy it is to be defensive when we’ve been working long hours. It’s really hard for me to see the Chronicle talking about going back to campus. When many student affairs folks never left, they’ve been here the whole time. Right. And how hard it is to go back to campus. We’ve been here all along. And you’re right. When there is criticism, it can be so easy to be defensive, which is self-focused rather than student focused. And how do we, how do we get shifted to that? So I really appreciate those wise words. Julie, how about you what’s needed? I know it’s tough going last because they take up so many good answers, but what’s what’s with you now. And how can folks connect with you?

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
Yeah. And it’s, you know, I echo a lot of the thoughts that have been said, obviously, so you go last with this amazing group of people. That’s what happens is that we’re all sort of thinking and swirling around the same things, but something, a couple of things I will add is Danielle. I so appreciate your comment about humility. And I will also add to that humility, and then we’d have to stop setting up or setting unrealistic expectations. And what I mean by that is when we talk about, and you mentioned like, how do we got to find a way for people to get some rest? How are we perpetuating that as a problem? Right? What expectations are we putting out there? Not with our words, but with our actions. And we have really got to dial back and figure out what is it we absolutely have to do?

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
What is it that needs to be answered right now? And what really, really can wait so we can help level set expectations because that’s part of our job, no matter where you are in an organization is to help figure out like what those expectations should be and hold people to account, not your own folks, but even external. I’m also thinking about moving beyond crisis. We tend to live in crisis all the time. We can talk about mental health. We can talk about the impact of trauma and it’s a crisis space and all of the assessments and all the professional associations are pointing to what’s coming. When we start to have to deal with all of the impacts that are happening, but we have to do that in a way that’s well-rounded. And this is where I lean on our Jedd foundation colleagues, right? We can’t just live in one side of that model, we have to look at the community, the connection, the engagement, the outreach, the helping to develop life skills and Vernon,

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
you talked about folks going out and we have to prepare our faculty and our staff for what’s coming. Yeah. We also have to think about what it is our students haven’t gotten for the past 18 months. And how are we going to have to reset what it is to onboard? Not just one class, sometimes two or three, depending on where we are, right. What it means to be back in that space, what life skills didn’t. They get to develop their last year in high school or their first year in college. And now here they come in as sophomores, we have second year students coming here in September that have never stepped foot on this campus. So orientation looks different, onboarding looks different is that we have to ask ourselves those really critical questions. And then the third thing I’m really thinking about, and this is really heavy in my heart is how are we doing all of it? Everything that we just talked about here, every single thing through that lens of racial equity and social justice, it can no longer be an add on it can no longer simply be a stated value. It has to be a priority. And that means you put the time and the effort, the resources, and the strategy behind it. And that is not just a calling for student affairs. That’s higher education writ large. So that’s where I’m sitting.

Keith Edwards:
And where would you like folks to connect with you Julie?

Julie Payne-Kirchmeier:
Oh yeah. You could go to find me. I’m going to hide. So jpkirchmeier@northwestern.edu is the best email address for me. And then you can follow me. I’m going to be cool, like Vernon on Insta or Twitter @jpkirchmeier or for those of you out there that are Peloton riders or Peloton app users. You can connect with me on the leaderboard at Dr. JP Krusher and that’s Krusher with a K and the abbreviation for doctor. There we go!

Keith Edwards:
Well, that’s as Student Affairs Now first we’ve never had anyone drop their Peloton name there. So congratulations. Thanks so much to all of you. You’ve been fantastic. I’m so grateful that you were able to set aside the time today as guests on student affairs. Now I want to thank our sponsors LeaderShape and Stylus. LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in-person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more, just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers, engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. To find out more, visit leadershape.org/virtualprograms or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And Stylus is our second sponsor. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor of the Student Affairs Now podcast. Browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at styluspub.com. You can use promo code SAnow for 30% off all their books plus free shipping.

Keith Edwards:
You can find them on a Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Insta, LinkedIn, and Twitter @styluspub, and huge shout out to Natalie Ambrosey the production assistant for the podcast who does all the behind the scenes work to make us all look and sound good. If you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out the archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests today and to everyone who is watching and listening, make it a great week. Thanks. Y’all. 

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