Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: It’s a challenge by choice, so you really choose what you wanna share. But I feel like for all of the authors, they took it there and I think took it there in such creative ways that I feel like evoke this kind of critical cultural knowledge that is often relegated to the margins. Of academia, but also just like intellectual production at large.

And we saw authors using approaches like Asian critical race theory and plantation politics, and, radical love radical healing, and a lot of other approaches. I think one of the chapters that really hit me, they were all powerful in their own way, but there was one where someone wrote it in a way where they were writing a letter to their past self.

Heather Shea: Welcome to Student Affairs Now, the Online Learning Community for Student Affairs Educators. I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today on the podcast, I’m talking with the editors of a powerful and timely new book that amplifies the voices of those working within identity-based centers on college campuses, spaces that are often at the heart of equity, inclusion, and belonging work.

Together, Jonathan and Stephanie have curated a collection that does not shy away from the hard truths of working in DEI spaces during this time of heightened resistance, while also centering healing, resilience and joy. We’ll talk about what it means to truly shake the table, how storytelling sustains those, doing this labor of care and resistance.

What leaders can do to move beyond performative allyship to real transformation, transformative support. Student Affairs now is a premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to higher education and student affairs. For the past five years, we’ve been creating space for meaningful conversations that inform, inspire, and affirm the work of educators everywhere.

We are so grateful to our listeners, guests, collaborators, sponsors who have helped this community grow and evolve. We hope these conversations contribute to the field and are restorative to the profession. New episodes drop every Wednesday. You can find us@studentaffairsnow.com, on YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

This episode is sponsored by the Evolve Institute for Higher Education Leadership, courageous Leadership, to reimagine the future of higher education. As I mentioned, I am your host for today’s episode, Heather Shea. My pronouns are she, her and hers, and I am broadcasting from the ancestral, traditional, and contemporary lands of the NBE three fires, Confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Ottawa, me peoples otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University, where I work.

Let’s get today’s conversation joining me. Let me get, bring us everyone onto the screen here. Are the editors of the book shaking the Table, survival and Healing amongst Identity center practitioners, Dr. Jonathan McElderry and Dr. Stephanie Hernandez Rivera. So I’m gonna read just a really quick Bri for each of you and then we’ll jump into questions.

Dr. Jonathan McElderry is the Dean of Student Inclusive Excellence and Assistant Professor at Elon University. A first generation college scholar. He is deeply committed to enhancing the academic and social experiences of historically marginalized students at predominantly white institutions. And Dr.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera is a Puerto Rican woman scholar and educator serving as an assistant professor of education and the inaugural Dr. Joe Watts Williams School of Education, emerging professional also at Elon University. Her research focuses on equity, inclusion and student development in higher education.

I am so excited about this opportunity to discuss your forthcoming book. Actually, by the time we release this episode, it will be out. So I am so excited to talk about your new book. Jonathan, why don’t you start, is there anything you’d like to share about the two of you beyond the brief bios that I just read?

Jonathan A. McElderry: Thanks Heather. Thanks again for having us. We are a hundred percent grateful just for the podcast for you, for all the things. The only thing I would add is it’s an interesting time period. So Stephanie and I met over 10 years ago, both working at the University of Missouri. And 10 years ago to this time when this was being recorded, we were in the thick of the 2015 protest.

So for Concerned student 1, 9 5 0. And so it’s interesting that this book is coming out and that we’ve wr co-edited and written parts of it 10 years later as we approach the 10th anniversary. I think what was interesting in that experience is actually Stephanie and I’s first scholarly article that we collaborated on was called Your Agenda Item, our Experience and it detailed our experience during the protests because as administrators both working in the Black Culture Center and the multicultural Center.

We weren’t allowed to do any sort of press. We couldn’t meet with any, all of the news outlets that came. And so for us, by that time I had left, MOU was at a new institution. Stephanie, I think had started her doctorate at the institution. And so this was our chance to tell our story and to really get it out there.

But do it in a way that fed into the scholarship of higher education.

Heather Shea: Wow. I just got chills as you were talking about that. Not only that process, but also that it’s been 10 years. A lot has changed in our world in the past 10 years. Stephanie, I’d love to turn to you anything else you’d like to share, but also what does it mean to shake the table and how did that idea become the foundation of this book?

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Yes, thank you again also, Heather, for having us and I think Jonathan hit it all, but we’re also both at Elon University now,

a decade

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: later. I love it. Just the wildest thing. I think it just demonstrates like how small higher education is. So to be able to be together in this moment and producing this work and creating this work, I think is a really full circle moment.

I also got chills while he was, and I lived it while he was talking and sharing. I think for me, and I think for Jonathan as well, I feel like shaking the table, that title, but also that action really represents challenging, unsettling, unstead, the status quo or what we know to be business as usual.

And I think for identity center practitioner. That’s really been the work. I recall early on in my professional career, I was working in an identity center space. It was my first position in higher education. And at times I was really confused about how people including, like leaders in the space would talk about equity and inclusion and their commitment towards equity and inclusion, but how actions and DY dynamics didn’t really reflect those supposed values.

And for me as like an early career professional, that was really disorienting. And I would often ask questions and at times be met with confusing stares or silence or clear annoyance about what I was trying to probe at or understand. And I think. That’s not uncommon particularly for early career practitioners, but even for those who have been in identity center work for some times.

But it reflects this destabilizing of the table. And to me that’s an act of resistance, especially when we think we often use that metaphor of the table of wanting a seat at the table or not being invited to the table. Or if you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu. And I think that identity center practitioners are.

When we’re at the table, we are challenging business as usual, but I, and I include myself in that ’cause I feel like that’s part of my identity, as a scholar practitioner. But also that even when we’re not at that table physically, we’re still in a way destabilizing it and shaking it by having to be discussed by having to be talked about by being an agenda item on the table.

And I think that’s part of the impetus of, us going with this title. I just remember, I don’t remember exactly how it unfolded, but I just remember it clicking and, us saying like shaking the table. I don’t know, Jonathan, if you remember it the same way.

Jonathan A. McElderry: We can probably some, one of the many brainstorming opportunities that we have.

Stephanie and I are, like I said, we work together again now and live close by each other, always with each other. So there’s times when an idea will pop up and I’ll text her say this in your notes section, or say this somewhere and we’ll be like, we’ll talk about it later and expand on it.

I think we just we’re in the midst of actually doing co-editing our first book and this idea just hit and we were like, okay, we need to finish this book, but we need this proposal turned in and see what comes of it. And so I think it just,

oh yes, it just

Jonathan A. McElderry: came out of like us just naturally having conversations banter back and forth like we normally do.

Yeah, which is my great ideas come from yeah.

Heather Shea: I love that. I I promise I’m not gonna talk too much about my own experience as an identity center practitioner. ’cause you all know that’s been my, was my background as well. But I think the table as a metaphor is really fantastic.

And I think it’s that I idea of getting a seat at the table, which is really a seat at the place where decisions are being made and power is being held. So I love hearing that, how you all embrace that and then brought this to this point of destabilization and resistance. So I think when you all probably started writing this book, we were in a little bit of a different place as a country.

And I’m really curious as you, as this has evolved as. Things in general have evolved as climate and higher ed has evolved. Jonathan, can you talk a little bit about why this book? Why now? Why is it important to center the voices and experiences of identity center practitioners?

Jonathan A. McElderry: Yeah, so when we first had the idea, it was right.

At the beginning of that wave when we started seeing some of the anti D-E-L-D-E-I laws kind of start to pop up in different states. And so that, that’s when we first started writing it. When now we didn’t know that we would be in a place where people were having to close centers and do all these other things.

We didn’t know we could work. So we saw where we were heading. And so for us, I think it’s important now as DEI is under attack to tell the story of the practitioners and those who are working in this spaces, and not only the challenges and successes that they face, but also they’re engaging with students.

And so I think about those personal stories of the students that are in those centers and that you got to work with and that you see grow from the moment they get on campus to the time they graduate. And even thinking about the relationships that we still have with many of those students and how that’s just grown throughout the years.

And just the importance that these spaces have been safe spaces and refugees ref, I know what the word I’m trying to say, but. Refuge.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Yeah. Yeah. Refuges

Jonathan A. McElderry: refuge for students of marginalized identities. And so I think it was important to kinda share that story. But I think also reflecting on our experience and knowing the situation we were in, in a protest that was national news and where every news channel was on our campus, we were like, there has to be many other stories that have gone untold that we want to provide space for them to share their experiences, but also amplify their amplify their voices and see themselves also as scholars within our field as well.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: For sure. I think also there’s a dearth of of scholarship, of practitioners speaking to their own experiences and sharing their testimonies. There is, as I’m Heather research and scholarship about identity centers, but it is often from the perspective of what do these spaces do?

What do they produce? How do they support student experiences? And, there is some work out there around closures of centers patents work Larry Patton Davis’s work around cultural centers specifically, I think is to, to my knowledge, the only book that really focuses on centers.

And and it’s focused on cultural centers and in a similar vein providing important insights around strategies and practices and how these spaces came to be. But I. We were looking for that space years ago to tell stories that were often relegated to the margins. And so for us, this almost 10 years later, at the point where we developed the idea, it was about how do we now use the space that we have to then provide that space for others.

Heather Shea: Wow. I have thought a lot about where that community happens, and I absolutely agree with you that it’s not easy to find. And I think even within our professional associations, you are either, focusing on our identities, salient identities, or the work that we do, but what happens when those things directly overlap and intersect?

And I think that’s a really important function that this book will serve as to, is to talk about that lived experience. Stephanie, can you talk a little bit more about, what are some of the themes and then you talked, I talked in the intro about survival and healing. And how did that kind of resonate with you as you, as an editor, as also as a contributor, as your own, having had your own lived experience how did that hit you as the one of the two editors?

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: That’s such a powerful question. I think. A little bit like a brick. Yeah. Be a little bit like a, it just felt so familiar, and I’ve been removed in a sense, from actually being the director of an identity center for a minute now, and. I found myself, I felt like in so many of their stories and the emotions that were evoked in the ways that they found connection, even in their vulnerability and like wanting a space to share that vulnerability, I feel like in each chapter you see the authors demonstrate this commitment to truth telling, to like giving their account of their experience in a way that was raw and vulnerable and courageous, right?

It’s a challenge by choice, so you really choose what you wanna share. But I feel like for all of the authors, they took it there and I think took it there in such creative ways that I feel like evoke this kind of critical cultural knowledge that is often relegated to the margins. Of academia, but also just like intellectual production at large.

And we saw authors using approaches like Asian critical race theory and plantation politics, and famo mento, radical love radical healing, and a lot of other approaches. I think one of the chapters that really hit me, they were all powerful in their own way, but there was one where someone wrote it in a way where they were writing a letter to their past self.

Ah. That. There were a couple that obviously like I was emotional, like reading them, I’m like trying to edit them, but emotional reading them and to think about wow, like what would I tell myself at that time? I think that’s work that I try to do now with my students around, like preparing them as early career professionals or even in individuals who have been in the field, but just the level of commitment to their own healing and to doing so thoughtfully and intentionally and in a way that would create community for others.

I think that was another huge piece was just the community that they would find in order to survive or to seek healing in their work and the ways they relied on other people for. Care for caring for themselves. But even how they, it seemed to find community through creating the work through creating their chapters was another piece.

And I think a final theme would be a commitment to to, to their pursuit of wellbeing and self-actualization. Like we saw that repeatedly, the authors were really trying to figure out how do I care for myself? Or how do I rectify the ways that I didn’t care for myself and making sense of that.

And so there really raw testimonies and just really vulnerable pieces. And I think every single one of them holds like a really special place in my heart and in my being.

Jonathan A. McElderry: Yeah, the only thing I would add, it. I would say ditto to everything that Stephanie said, but I think for me, it took me back to 10 years ago as we were editing it Yeah.

And thinking about our experience. And so I remember, I’ve talked a lot about critical hope, and I always credit Heather Shea during her presidential address at a CPA for just giving me the language for something I didn’t know that I was already using. And so from there, I’ve gotten the book, I go read it.

Great life changing. The book is amazing, but I think about a moment during that period, Stephanie, I don’t know if you remember this part that we were in the midst of the protest. And mind you, like I, I’d never experienced anything like this. And so I’m like, I’m trying to lead, but also I’m like, this is also a new experience.

But I remember within the Black Culture Center, we had a kitchen and I remember going into the kitchen and falling on my knees and almost crying, and I said a prayer. And I’m like I really need you to help me get through this. Like these kids meet me. And I dunno what I’m doing.

Like I am trying my best. I think what was also interesting was I was a doc student at this same point in time, and so November 9th, 2015, I was set to defend my dissertation. And so

Heather Shea: Wow. Wow. I did not know that part of the story, Jonathan.

Jonathan A. McElderry: And did. So I had, or I had scheduled this before the protest to make sure my committee, like I had turned in my district.

So I’m like, this is four and a half years of work. And so that morning on November 9th was when I, the system president, the chancellor stepped down. I stayed at home that morning, but Stephanie was on campus because I had to defend at one o’clock. And so my supervisor was like, just stay at home, focus, lock in.

And I’m like, okay, they, I’m going into a uncharted territories. But I remember prior to that, some of the students and some of the orgs and groups that I advised had asked about coming to my defense and I was like, absolutely not. It’s a vulnerable space. And they asked me again and they were like, we wanna come.

And I was like why do y’all wanna come so bad? And they were like we’ve never seen someone get their doctor. We’ve seen you writing, seen you studying, and all these things. And they had actually already, they had already voted on this name that they were gonna call me Dr. J. And so they were like, we already came up with this name for you, so this is pre my defense.

And so we get to the defense, Stephanie shows up, everybody shows up. But about 70 students showed up. And I told my chair before, I was like, the students say they’re coming, but I was like, we’re also in the midst of this national protest. So they may not show up, but they were there, they were engaged.

They actually waited in the hallway when the committee kicked everybody out. Yeah. And they just me and actually stayed there. I expected for them to be gone. I knew Stephanie and others would be would be there waiting, but they were out there on their laptops. And so for me, that’s always a pivotal moment when I think about one critical hope, but also the role of mentorship of it’s not always about me.

Like even though I may have been scared to have them in the room, I was in this moment

Of a protest and a, and something going on that I had never experienced before. But the symbolism of what I represented to them was super important. And so I’m always. That’s a lesson that I’ve always cared with me.

’cause I’m glad that I didn’t say no and didn’t tell them that they couldn’t come because having them be there, having them there to support me and even just reflecting and looking back at pictures and everything, it just, it’s a memory that I probably will carry with me the rest of my life.

Heather Shea: Oh my goodness. Wow.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Yes. It’s that it’s actually, and I just wanna add that when the Chair of Jonathan’s committee announced that he had passed the roar in that room is something that I can still hear. And it’s, it is like emotional, I think, like both of us. And even preparing for this, Jonathan said to me like, are you gonna cry?

Because

Heather Shea: Yeah. I didn’t expect to

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: cry. Yeah. It really is. It’s about to be 10 years later, and that same day that he defended was the same day that the president of the system resigned. Like the level of just, yeah, talk about being, you know how people talk about like diamonds and how they’re like crafted under pressure.

Yeah.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Like the level of pressure at that time, and to go in and be very composed despite the fact of like how much I know that he was experiencing internally and just being able to be that model of possibility for those students. It wasn’t my defense, but it was a moment that I will never forget because they were, it was like they were watching like a football game or.

Heather Shea: I love it. It’s not a football game, it’s a doctoral defense. There’s definitely rules, but,

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: oh no, I’m saying like, when it was like if they were watching somebody score a touchdown, and once that applause, right? I’m like, oh my goodness. Oh, this is great.

Heather Shea: That is so great. I love that so much.

Wow, that is really powerful kind of juxtaposition of those two things, happening simultaneously, but also how important identity center practitioners are to that student experience in the student communities. And yet I think often the Identity center practitioner, just as your, as the title of your book, indicates are the ones who are getting a lot of institutional pushback for the type of work that they’re doing.

Jonathan, I know that in, in this particular moment, this is difficult. I’m sure it was difficult then as well, but how do folks who work in these centers navigate that institutional, put back pushback, but also take care of themselves? I think there is, the rest is resistance. Trisha Hershey’s work.

And like it also feels, I know from my own experience, like you can’t do quite enough. Like you’re always gonna be feeling like, oh, there’s some more, much more I could do. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jonathan A. McElderry: Yeah. So I would say definitely we’re in a much different time than we were ma many years ago.

But I felt like when I was in that space, I remember, and even now I feel like always leading like with facts and figures. Like I feel like you can’t forgive me with data. And so if I’m presenting a program, this is the literature, these are the data from our institution nationally. There’s not much we can argue about.

And so I think that’s always been my approach through the various types of identity centers that I’ve worked in. I would say when thinking about how do we navigate pushback and wellbeing, I think definitely taking care of yourself. So even, that story that I shared about the dissertation defense and this experience, like we lived through it and we survive, but I think the healing was also equally just important afterwards.

And so I had to get a therapist ’cause I, I was like, I have all of these emotions, these feelings I’ve experienced all these things. Even after the defense, the next day was when yak was still a thing and people were like, we’re gonna shoot campus up and we’re gonna do all of these things.

And we’re like, dang. Like you, like people are anonymous. Call people were calling from like other states. Like I remember I got a call from texas and this man is like ranting on the phone, had no connection to the institution, but just was like spewing hate. And it’s like one of those things that like, post some of the challenges that we’ve seen at other institutions that you have to take them seriously.

So we were like bunker down in the black culture center. I didn’t think I was gonna tell the story, but I’m gonna tell it. But I got a text that night, oh, I’m not gonna cry. And the students like, my initial reaction, I remember texting Stephanie and telling and the folks that worked in the center with me, I’m like, we’re gonna close the center.

Like we’re gonna close the center the next day because people are threatening and all of that. And I wanted to keep everybody safe. But the students texted that night, they were like, Nope, we wanna occupy the B, c, C that’s our home and we’re not letting anybody run us out. And Ooh, and I remember that morning I got up and it was on the news about the protests and I remember.

Going to Walmart on my way to work to get a bat just in case. I dunno what I was gonna do with this bat, but just in case something went down. But I remember getting there and the students were already there. Some of the students from MPHC and ra, they were like we walked around the building, we surveillance it, like everything is good.

We can go in. And we were locked in to that building. People brought food, we had pizza, we had all these things. And it was a space of joy and celebration, but also this is our home. This is our space. You’re not about to scare us from it. And so I think about that in the healing aspect and wellbeing and why I think going to therapy and making sure that I was better after that was important.

’cause again, we’re balancing these roles of yes, I’m here to advocate and be here for the students, but I also. This is my job too. I got bills to pay, things I gotta do. And I think that always resonates with me. I think you already touched on it earlier, that the concept of rest is resistance.

I think. Yeah. You have to rest. If we are not well and we are not whole, then we can’t show up and do the work that we need to do to move our institutions, our centers and be here for our students and move it forward. And so I think as cliche as it sounds, you have to rest because our bodies will let us know when we are tired and burnt out. And I think we have to listen to that. I think we’ve seen over the last couple of years the number of black women that have Yeah. Passed away. Some even on stage from the labor that they were putting out. And I think there, there was a article was like, and the show went on and the woman, was taken off stage and they continued with the program.

And I’m like, we need to be here to fight this fight. Yeah. We need to be here to, to support our students. We need to be here. To be able to tell this story, to be able to tell the next generation for folks to be able to read about it, to hear about it, to listen to this podcast. And Stephanie, I know you have something to say, so I’m gonna drop my eyes while you take it from here.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: I appreciate you. I think that many navigate their wellbeing and institutional pushback, external pushback with grace as best they can. But I think that the reality is that some might not be at all. I think about myself at a time that was, challenging of course in its own right.

I don’t know what it would look like for me today, but I think at that time as an early career practitioner, like my wellbeing was the last thing that I was thinking about. At all times. I went to work at nine in the morning and sometimes didn’t get home until nine, and I only lived seven minutes from campus.

So I, there no commute really involved. And I think about myself at that time and just I was so passionate about what I was doing and I cared so much about it. And I know I tell this to my students. The idea of worker being my identity is so ingrained in me. I think as a woman of color, as observing my own mother, just be just the ultimate hustler.

And I think. Of working so hard in education to make something of myself that my career really was like the, my focus and I didn’t create boundaries around that thing that I was so passionate about. And I urge I think institutional leaders and also supervisors to think about how they aren’t placing the burden on identity center practitioners to be the ones who have to navigate pushback, who have to navigate figuring out their own wellbeing.

How when they come into your office to talk about their day or whatever’s on the agenda, how are you integrating wellbeing into the conversation and ensuring that people are creating boundaries around their work because these institutions will work you until you have nothing left to give. And I think even the students, we love them, but sometimes even creating boundaries with them and h helping them understand that.

When I’m not here, it’s not because I don’t care, it’s because I also, have to have something outside of my work. So I think people navigate it with grace and I also think people are figuring out how to navigate it, and that’s where supervisors and institutional leaders need to step in to give that guidance and ensure that this is a sustainable career path for the long term.

Heather Shea: That really resonates for me for on a number of different levels. One, because I think, I feel like I have this conversation regularly with the people in my orbit, but also that like self imposing boundaries is a privilege. And to not be judged for saying, no, I’m. I am going home.

And who gets to do that? Who gets to say that? And I think identity center practitioner, maybe it’s partially because our identities are so intrinsic, intrinsically interwoven with the work. It becomes like there’s not really a, there’s know balance. Everything is like the same

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Yeah, the same thing.

And the assumptions, I think too, that people make about that. Yeah. Oh shouldn’t you care more than leaving at five o’clock and then adding onto that expectations and stereotypes because of your identity that, that kind of all funnels in and it creates an opportunity, for, beautiful challenging work, but it also creates a lot of opportunity for exhaustion and burnout.

Heather Shea: Yeah. So Jonathan, you are now in a senior role. I don’t know if identity center folks report to you or not, but, I do think that it’s important, as Stephanie was saying, that, supervisors, senior leaders, recognize the toll that these positions might take on staff.

So what do you, what is your suggestion or what is your approach to making sure that you move beyond this like performative allyship to really meaningfully support staff who work in these spaces?

Jonathan A. McElderry: Yeah. I would say now I think one is listening with intention and listening to their stories.

And the things that they experience, either that they’re navigating on campus when they come to share stories that students may share with them. I think that’s just very important. I think sometimes you can easily dismiss it and be like, oh no, this is, this person didn’t mean that or this didn’t happen.

But I think actually being there when something does happen and advocating for them, I think a biggest thing is. Institutional funding. If we are going to talk about that, these are our values, these are the things that are important to us, then for these centers and for these staff to be successful, they need the resources, they need the staffing, they need the support.

And some of it is like not laboring those specific centers to do all of the identity based work and knowing that it should be infused in everybody’s role or when they have programs like how are we all showing up, not just the folks of one marginalized identity, but showing up to support these, this student group or support this center.

I think the other thing, and I’ve, I think I’ve learned this throughout my career ’cause I didn’t do it well at the beginning is what you talked about as far as like setting these boundaries and knowing that everything is not of emer is not an emergency. And I feel like a lot of times. We operate in a way that like, oh, I see this email, I need to respond, or the student, and I need to do all of these things immediately and knowing that we have to take care of ourselves.

So that is something that I try to push for folks. I’m like, no, please take a day off if you’re not feeling well. And there’s something, if we need to move chairs, we’ll move the chairs. If we need to move tables don’t, I don’t want you coming to work and you’re not feeling well just because you feel like you need to be here, or that if you aren’t here then the show won’t go on.

And so I think and again, I’m still working on modeling that behavior. ’cause I have all these roles that I hold and things that I do, and I’m like, no, I’m good. I’m fine. And all of those things. I think also the only other thing I would say is thinking about senior leaders is moving beyond the performative allyship.

And I know we were at a point in time where everybody’s making a statement and everybody’s, yeah. Gonna do all of the we don’t need to do that. Unless again, you have some resources, staffing, some sort of support behind your statement.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Jonathan A. McElderry: I think that’s just it. It is very important.

I think also too I would say for senior leaders, it’s just showing up. It doesn’t always need to be a crisis when you’re faced seen, like just showing up to say how are the students, how are you all? What’s going on? Stop in, get some lunch. That kind of thing. I think moving beyond that space, especially in this day and age of kind of social media where everything’s just so media and we’re always running and doing all these things, but like taking the time to slow down and just be like, what is your origin story?

Like, where are you from? What is your major? And all these things I think are super important. And I think it, it sets the space, the institution up in a way that like when a crisis does happen, if the relationships are already built. Then we’re able to navigate the crisis in a very different manner versus it the first time that, we see whoever it is.

That yes, Stephanie?

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Yeah. I think I was thinking a lot of the same things that, that Jonathan was saying, especially as somebody who observed it and experienced it back in the days. But I think building a little bit on, on what you’re sharing, Jonathan, it’s, for a lot of our students who are of marginalized identities and marginalized communities, relational dynamics are really important to them.

Yeah. To feel like someone cares about me, someone is invested in me. I think it’s one thing like you, you to show up in a space and do office hours in it, right? Yeah. It’s another thing to show up in a space and interact. With the students and get to know them and ask about them. It’s one thing to give funding oh, here’s your funding to do these events.

It’s another thing to show up at students’ events and not just the big ones, not the ones that are like the signature events that, oh, we expect to see these faces. No, the ones that they coordinate for themselves. If it’s appropriate. But to know that you have to actually engage with them.

And I think sometimes senior, or institutional leaders especially, particularly of privileged identities, sometimes there’s almost like a fear of interacting with students and like you can’t be afraid. You have to get in there with them. I think the other thing is that the ways, there’s that work around.

Amad Padilla has cultural taxation, Hirschfield and Joseph built on it with identity taxation. I think in a lot of ways, we’re talking about individuals with that kind of work, but our centers experienced an identity taxation. I remember back in the day when it was like, oh, black students, we understand that you’re struggling on campus.

Go to the Black Culture Center. The Black Culture Center has two full-time staff in it. I, yeah. How are they serving? Like John, do you remember that?

Heather Shea: Two full-time staff and $5. Like I, I like, we do a lot with that $5, but

Jonathan A. McElderry: money stretch. Yes. The only other thing I would add that I was thinking about when I was thinking about the book is each of the authors shared their story, but they also were intentional about offering these same sort of suggestions and feedback to yes, future supervisors about practitioners or future leaders.

And so I appreciated that they didn’t just tell their story. They gave folks next steps. We also, for the forward, we had Dr. Jordan, Shelby West who we all know on the screen do our forward. And I know when Stephanie and I were just thinking about the book, we were like, who should do the forward?

We were like, do we need a forward? Do we not need a forward? We were like, no, this would be good. And Jordan just immediately came to mind just with her words her way, just the way that she writes talks, does all the things was like super important and she’s always been a good friend of mine.

And then her and Stephanie met and they formed their own relationship and friendship. And so I, I. Just, I’m excited for people just to even start the off with that forward and then to get into each of the chapters of the authors as well.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Especially her being right in that space of also being, an institutional leader now and just writing such an exquisite forward that I feel like captures the space between where it’s like the space of being identity center and understanding that work, but also being an institutional leader and understanding and like melding those together is like beautifully captured in that forward and we appreciate her.

I

Heather Shea: love that. I have a question not related to what we prepped, but it’s related to this idea of what role senior leaders can play. And I am really curious because YouTube, both on the same campus came together. One of the gaps I think I’ve seen is when identity centers are almost pitted against each other and there’s not solidarity across those units.

It’s like we’re all trying to get the $5. And so it, it creates some really interesting dynamics. Do you have suggestions of what senior leaders can do to help identity centers build, like coalition work and collaborative opportunities? Is that even worth exploring?

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Do you wanna go first or you want me to Go ahead.

I think, there’s some work about the, around this, and I can’t remember who wrote the piece, but I think one of them is thinking intentionally about resourcing.

Yeah.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: In a way that doesn’t position these spaces in conflict and intention with one another. And so what does it mean to resource these spaces in a way that even is like collaborative and maybe where you’re bringing people to the table to do so in a way that is thoughtful and, reasoned and makes sense and isn’t just maybe, I don’t know.

I’m thinking we don’t wanna see this group upset, so let’s give them money. Yeah. And because I feel like that’s what ends up happening. I think I wanna speak if I can to the practitioners themselves is I think that. Speaking to institutional leaders is important, but for me, coming into a space where Jonathan was already working, for example, at the University of Missouri, it was super important to me to do what you just said, is to think about how we engage in solidarity across these spaces.

Because I never wanted to feel like being, the director of the multicultural Center meant that women students should not come into this space.

Or black students should not come into this space, or queer students or trans students should not come into this space. That was always really important to me, and in order for me to.

To engage in that I needed to show up, which is like another thing on the plate, right? Sure. But I needed to show up for my colleagues in those spaces and not through my words, not through an email or through a, oh, let’s do this collaboration. It was through attending events and forging those relationships in an intentional way.

It was an advocating in meetings for things that might not affect, quote unquote my students. Yeah, and engaging in those actions. And I feel like when we do that amongst each other, we are more powerful when we have to go to institutional leaders that we don’t just advocate for our own, we advocate for others.

And I feel I love that you asked this question. ’cause to me that’s always been so important in this work that they don’t pit us against each other, that we work. Collaboratively. I don’t know if Jonathan, if you have something to add to that.

Jonathan A. McElderry: Yeah, I would say I, I too am appreciative of this question.

I think, yes, Stephanie was, has always just who she is and her being been very intentional about relationship building and it could’ve went very different ways. ’cause there were some disparities in how both of our spaces were resources. Like the Black Culture Center was its own standalone building, like kitchen, like all of these things.

And so that easily could have been a situation where we were pitted against each other, but I think that we knew early on that we were better together. And so it was important, she, Stephanie moved from New Jersey. I had moved from Virginia. So we were both in Missouri. We had never lived here before.

This was a current place to us. We’re trying to figure it out. I had been there maybe a few, two or three years, but before she got there starting off. Initially as a full-time doc student, then as eventually becoming part-time and then working full-time. But I think just that sentiment of that relationship building, what we mentioned earlier was super important.

I think. Also just like Stephanie and I have, I’ve created a friendship and the fact we’re back in the back at the same institution, it’s just

Mind blowing. So great. We’ve been there to support each other. We’ve cried, we laughed, we’ve done all these things. Like I love her mom when she comes to visit.

My mom and my grandmother are like. Oh, can your daughter, can I do all? And so they love, but I think also for me it was also me learning. And so Stephanie, being from Jersey, being Puerto Rican, like I don’t speak Spanish, but let me tell you, I’m trying all the foods, I’m listening to the stories.

Stephanie’s got me hooked on Bad Bunny, know what bad money is saying. But when I tell you that I like want to go to his concert, ’cause I watched his show on Amazon Live. I was like drawn in, drawn completely in. And I think that cultural exchange and being able to learn and grow with each other is just so important.

And I think it goes back to just like communication. Like just being open with each other, being able to listen and Stephanie and I like we will bicker like siblings as well. Yeah. We’re together a lot. And so yeah, they’ll be, I’ll be like, Stephanie’ll call and be like, Stephanie, I’m getting off the phone.

Bye. And then she’ll call back and be like, oh yeah, I forgot to say this. But I think we also found the things that we love, like we love watching House watch together. We love sending memes and gifs teach. Like it just is I don’t know. It’s just a loving relationship that I’m always Yeah.

Appreciative of. And just so thankful that the universe not only aligned us over a decade ago. Even though we kept in touch all of this time, but then saw fit to bring us back together now, 10 years later, to be able to be in these roles and to produce scholarship and to help usher the in the next generation.

Heather Shea: I love that. I, so this is the, actually the second episode I’ve recorded this week where the two people knew each other for a series of time, right? And I think that shows in not only the way that you all are talking, but finishing each other’s sentences and also just like the way that you’ve collaborated over the years.

And I, I’m so grateful to be able to be a part of the witnessing this conversation between the two of you. And I have no doubt this episode is just gonna really speak to people who recognize the power of those relationships across decades, across campuses. That’s really phenomenal.

As you all have been. Telling stories and sharing your experiences. Like I’ve really been struck. I know the book is really about stories. Can you, Stephanie, maybe talk a little bit about the role, why is storytelling important and, why is it particularly important when people feel isolated in the labor of care resistance work?

What do stories do for us?

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Absolutely. I also love this question. I think my perspectives on this really come from the activists intellectual. Contributions of women of color thinkers, scholars, educators, and I’m always gonna speak that I’m sure if people have heard me speak before, they’ve heard me say that and I don’t care.

I’m gonna say it every time. I think one group in particular I’m thinking about is those who created the kitchen table, women of color press, which is no longer in existence. I think that was in 1980 and. You have women of color like Audre Lorde and Barbara Smith and Sheddy Moraga who came together to create that press because they recognized that there was a dearth in publishing presses that would publish the work of women of color.

Yeah. And they understood that it was important to engage in sharing about their own experience, their knowledge and what they had to offer to reveal how oppression functions in distinct ways in their lives to reveal those realities. Because those realities were, in many ways, being suppressed or as dots, Dotson, explains like quiet, quieted or smothered.

And so I think part of storytelling is. Engaging in an act of community, is that through telling that story, even if it’s written right? If we’re not engaging in this space, like how the three of us are, and as we’re sharing, we’re feeling connected, even if we’re in a virtual space, right? I feel connected to both of you in this space, but that same thing can happen in writing.

I’ll never forget. The first time I read Sister Outsider by Andre Lord, like feeling completely enveloped by that work and by that contribution feeling seen and held in that body of work. And I feel like that’s one of the reasons why we wanted to do this is because we recognize what it feels like to feel isolated when you don’t have strong.

Luckily Jonathan and I had each other, we also had our wonderful colleague at the time and who we both still keep in touch with Thelma Buckner, who is like a light in this world. And, we had each other. But even that still felt like our little community. And to be able to have work out there that other people can connect to that can, maybe not eliminate that isolation, but buffer it for us is really powerful.

And I think we need this now especially because I think there is a challenge right. To feeling that like hope and that sense of connection in this work.

Jonathan A. McElderry: Absolutely. The only thing I’ll add is the be very brief and quick with this story, but this the importance of storytelling to make sure that the accurate story is being told.

And so that part what’s interesting so at Elon, I teach in the master’s of higher ed program, history of Higher Education. So we actually have a student in Stephanie NAS class who just graduated from Mizzou. This past year. And so one of the assignments that I have them do is their alma mater presentation.

And so of course she did hers on Mizzou and she incorporated like stuff about the protests in there. But when I was like looking at it, I was like, oh wait girl, huh? And I’m like, and so it was a great learning opportunity ’cause it was, we were able to then talk about okay, this is what was passed down to you six years later when you enrolled after this had all ended.

But lemme tell you from the person who was there and lived it and she showed a video and thing and I was like, oh, lemme tell you that student story, that student, like I can point them out. And I remember calling Stephanie after class and being like, such an interesting like class that we had today.

And they actually do read our article that we mentioned earlier, later in the semester. So I think it’s in the next two weeks they’ll read it. But it was just interesting just to hear. Being removed and 10 years away from it, the narrative that was being told and how it was being shared. And I was like, okay, Liz, we gotta make sure, the older folks, the elders, whoever are continuing the story so that it’s accurate and that, as people leave sometimes history gets lost and like people go on to different spaces.

But making sure that this generation the youth of today actually are fully aware of what exactly happened in that space.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Yeah. And I think that was one of the reasons that we wrote that first work. Because we wanted to share our experience that it, it was really nowhere, right? It was invisible in the conversation.

And also the experiences of women of color activists at that time who had become largely invisible in mainstream media had become about, one man and a football team instead of what. This has been a buildup, right? And like women of color, black women in particular were engaged in this work, and somehow their names and their stories are completely invisible in this conversation, which is something that we brought attention to in that first article.

Heather Shea: Yes. The storytelling and documentation, it does help establish the record, but I’m always cautious and conscious of the ways that it can be revised without the people who were there. And then all of a sudden the narrative is like a completely different thing. And you’re like, wait a second.

And so I know one of the first things I did when I was brought in as a director of a women’s center on, on a different campus, not here, was talk with people who were here when the center was established. So like the telling of the stories of the. Those who fought for that space. I think that’s another kind of place that can be sometimes just, it be, it gets moved into like institutional lore and then maybe not even recorded,

i’m really I’m glad you told that story. ’cause I do think sometimes students also will have their own perspective of things and then that becomes reality. Wow. So Jonathan, you have you and Stephanie have a second volume coming out, which I am so grateful and honored to have had the opportunity to contribute a chapter about my experience directing two different campus-based women and gender equity centers, which, neither of which currently exist.

Which during the process of writing the chapter, I had to keep going back and does this still, is this still relevant? What is my experience I’d left? And anyway, I can’t wait for that new volume to come out. Next year, can you talk a bit about how you intend to expand and continue the conversation that you started with?

Shaking the table and still shaking the table,

Jonathan A. McElderry: shaking it. So yeah, next time you We’ll focus on just supporting students unity and activism. For us, when we put the call out, originally we didn’t intend for it to be a two-parter. But we got so many submissions and I remember when we were looking at all the submissions, we were like, these people have stories to tell, like we, we can’t.

Say no. And so I remember us going back to the publisher and being like, Hey, we got a lot of submissions. Can we negotiate, do doing two separate books because thi this, the story needs to be told. And so I think just as much as we’re excited about this first one to, next year when still shaking the table comes out, I think to hear those stories is such a compliment to this first book and is such a good book end to, to look at the five themes across all both books.

And so I think we’re just we’re super excited about that.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Stephanie,

Heather Shea: anything you wanna add?

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Yeah I think the only thing I’ll add to this is that in this vo in this current volume that’s, supposed to be released by the time this is airing Jonathan and I focus more on.

Positioning the necessity of the text and the need to engage and send to the voices and the work of practitioners. Whereas within the next volume, I think we share more about our connection and frame that connection through this idea of scholar siblings, which is something that we’ve been trying to conceptualize for a while now.

And I think within the first chapter of that text, we’re finally able to give that relationship of scholar sibling, that conceptualization wings and highlight how we have this shared history and this connection that has been nurtured over time, and that in that connection we’ve experienced challenge and joy alongside one another.

And that this relationship that we have has really been instrumental in cultivating us as scholars. And that part of the reason that we are able to be successful in this work is because we have experienced and supported one another through those experiences. And so I’m thinking like about my sister.

Like my sister has challenged me, she has pushed me, she’s emboldened me to be the best version of myself sometimes she’s brought out hard versions of myself. But I also feel like Jonathan has done this for me as well, and knowing me in that unique way and one another in those unique ways, really transcends the relationship of colleague.

It informs how we can train, continue to develop and execute projects that others can find connection and hope in. And so thinking a little bit about how are we cultivating these scholar sibling relationships because it’s important for us who have been engaged in this work to continue engaging in this work and to continue to find relationship with one another.

And we’re excited to like share that finally, like within that next volume.

Heather Shea: We need to do a whole nother episode on scholar siblings. I love this concept. I think it is really powerful because you’re more than collaborators, right? Yeah. I think that’s really clear in this conversation, but the idea that your chosen family and your connected through this shared process of creating these texts yeah, I think there, there are lots of examples of people out there who you always see their names together, right?

That I bet would love to have a conversation about that. So let’s we’ll put that out into the universe and anybody who’s listening, who’s we’re scholar siblings, we wanna join. So in kind of closure, I think today, and I could just keep talking with you all for at least another hour or so.

But, I do think that these pieces these two books are really love letters to identity center practitioners. They are affirming and celebratory. But what would you like to say as far as one piece of wisdom or advice or affirmation to folks who are doing this work who might be in that space of why am I doing this right?

This is hard. My institutions defunded our program, or now I’m trying to do this but in more of an underground kind of way. I’d love to hear you each talk about that and then if you have like a LinkedIn or email or whatever way you would like folks to get in touch with you, I’d love to hear that as well.

We’ll start with you Stephanie.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: Thank you for saying these books are love letters. ’cause they really, I think are and this question, it makes me emotional. I think about what I would tell myself 10 years ago-ish. And I think the first thing is what you are able to give does not define you.

I think in this work we want to give so much of ourselves as a demonstration that we care. And not just that we care, but that students matter. And they do matter so much. Especially marginalized students, especially students of color, queer students of color, women of color like you all matter.

And I think we wanna share that. What you give doesn’t define who you are. You’re more than just what you can extend. And it’s okay to not be able to give all of yourself at all times. That’s unfair. And I think the second thing is that you deserve the same love and care you are offering others and the same intentionality that you’re arriving to your work with, you deserve to arrive to your wellbeing and your personhood and your humanity with.

I think that’s something that we all can say to ourselves more, especially identity center practitioners, especially those of marginalized identities. And so that is the affirmation that I hope that not just, this volume carries, but that you can affirm yourself with every single day.

Heather Shea: I love that. I love that. Thank you. So I would say,

Jonathan A. McElderry: There’s three things. One, that your work matters even if you don’t see the results in real time. I always think about just the students’ lives who may not get in the moment, but like a few years later you get that text or that email. There’s I remember when you said this to, and like the keep that at the forefront think about the people.

I think we’ve talked about the importance of storytelling and lineage. One of the chapters in the book that I love is three center directors from the same institution in three generations. And they all told their story together about navigating that space. The institution it phenomenal and you can see how they all learn from each other and even to come together and now write this text it’s so powerful.

So that’s that importance of just storytelling and staying connected to those that came before you. And I would say the last thing, when you think about. Shaking the table is just the spirit of Sankofa. And so reaching back, it doesn’t just need to be your seat at the table. If you need to bump somebody over, we can squeeze another seat in.

But it, it just doesn’t need to be that concept of you have to be the only one. Like there, there’s room for more folks. And I, and that’s just something that’s really important to me is making sure that like you are thinking about others, that you’re not just thinking about yourself. ’cause it’s not just about you, it’s about this the center, the students, but it’s also about the people you supervise, that you work with.

And again, thinking about the next generation. And so those are the three things. I would say I would say while you’re at the table, one of the table legs may break. You may need to prop it up with a book.

But hold your seat there and enjoy it and sit there and just be in that moment, in that space and thinking about.

All the people that came before you that allowed you to be able to pull that seat up at the table.

But

Jonathan A. McElderry: out in there I’ll say if you wanna get in contact with me LinkedIn, so Jonathan a McElderry, find me on there. You’ll find my email, everything there, but find me on LinkedIn, Google me. We’ll be able to connect, but I’m happy and open to connect with folks who are interested.

Stephanie Hernandez Rivera: You can find me on LinkedIn as well. Stephanie Hernandez Rivera or Stephanie Hernandez Rivera. Depends on your accent. I’m on LinkedIn and I’m on Instagram too. Stef Hefa underscore, which translates to Stephanie, the boss, basically. And. Heather, thank you so much for inviting us. And in terms of using a book to prop up that table, just don’t use ours.

Heather Shea: Yes, that book needs to be on the table. On the table. Open what? Red

Jonathan A. McElderry: And put one on the table and then you, the foundation to pop it up. Oh my gosh, I’m so appreciative of just, again, student affairs now of you, of all those behind the scenes that made this possible. So thank you so much.

Heather Shea: I, the equally grateful for both of you sharing time and space with me today.

I always end the episodes feeling like this is exactly what I needed today, and I think this last hour or however long we’ve been talking has really just filled me and made me think a lot about my own experiences. So thank you for that gift. Today I also need to thank our sponsor as always the Evolve Institute of Higher Education Leadership.

Evolv is evolving. Doctors Brian Ara, Don Lee, and our own Keith Edwards are excited to announce the Evolv Institute for Higher Education Leadership. Evolv offers leadership’s coaching journeys for executives, emerging executives, and emerging leaders, as well as specific leading for equity focused cohort.

If you’re ready to evolve your leadership team or invest in the personal leadership in your personal leadership they would love to connect with you to talk about their in-person, hybrid and online modalities to evolve your leadership for us all. As we mark five years of student affairs now, we are especially grateful for all the ways that this community of listeners, guests, and collaborators has grown.

We’ve hosted hundreds of conversations like this one, grounded in care, reflection, and in shared commitment to learning and leading with purpose. So to our audience, thank you for being a part of this learning community. And whether you’ve been with us since the beginning or tuning in for the first time, we hope this episode leaves you feeling renewed and connected to the larger community of educators who make this work possible.

Once again, I’m Heather Shea. Thank you for listening. Thank you to everybody who’s been a part of this community, and here’s in the next five years and beyond.

Article citations: 

Campbell, E. T. (2022). “Outsider Forever”: Black Women Multicultural Center Administrators’ Identity Negotiation Experiences at Historically White Institutions (Doctoral dissertation, The University of Alabama).

Chiang, E. S. (2020) Disability cultural centers: How colleges can move beyond access to inclusion. Disability & Society, 35(7), 1183-1188, DOI: 10.1080/09687599.2019.1679536 

Harris, J. C., & Patton, L. D. (2017). The challenges and triumphs in addressing students’ intersectional identities for Black culture centers. Journal of Diversity in Higher Education, 10(4), 334-349.

Hernandez Rivera, S. (2020). A space of our own: Examining a Womxn of Color retreat as a counterspace. Journal of Women and Gender in Higher Education, 13(3), 327-347. https://doi.org/10.1080/26379112.2020.1844220

Hernandez Rivera, S. (2023). Resisting invisibility: Women of color activists revealing the dynamics in identity centers and student organizations. Journal of Diversity in Higher Education. Advance online publication. https://doi. org/10.1037/dhe0000515

Hypolite, L. I. (2020). ” It just helps to know that there are people who share your experience”: Exploring Racial Identity Development Through a Black Cultural Center. Journal of Negro Education, 89(3), 233-248.

Lozano, A. (2019). Anchor and launching pad: The role of a Latino cultural center in Latinx college student success at a historically white institution. Future Review: International Journal of Transition, College, and Career Success, 1(2), 19-28. 

Marine, S. B., & Nicolazzo, Z. (2014). Names that matter: Exploring the tensions of campus LGBTQ centers and trans* inclusion. Journal of Diversity in Higher Education, 7(4), 265.

McElderry, J. A., & Hernandez Rivera, (2017). “Your Agenda Item, Our Experience”: Two Administrators’ Insights on Campus Unrest at Mizzou. The Journal of Negro Education, 86(3), 318-337.

Nickels, A. E., & Trier-Bieniek, A. (2017). Social Change through Campus Engagement: Perspectives on Feminist Activist Pedagogy in University-Based Women’s Centers. In Feminist Pedagogy, Practice, and Activism (pp. 211-228). Routledge.

Ortiz, S. M., & Mandala, C. R. (2021). “THERE IS QUEER INEQUITY, BUT I PICK TO BE HAPPY”: Racialized Feeling Rules and Diversity Regimes in University LGBTQ Resource Centers. Du Bois Review: Social Science Research on Race, 18(2), 347-364. 

Patton, L. D. (2006). The voice of reason: A qualitative examination of Black student perceptions of Black culture centers. Journal of College Student Development, 47(6), 628-646.

Pedota, J. (2024). Institutionalization of a Latinx Campus Cultural Center: Exploring a Case of Racialized Administrative Burdens Faced by Latinx Staff and Students. Journal of Cases in Educational Leadership, 27(1), 34-46.

Revilla, A. T. (2010). Raza womyn—making it safe to be queer: Student organizations as retention tools in higher education. Black Women, Gender & Families, 4(1), 37-61. https://doi.org/10.5406/blacwomegendfami.4.1.0037  

Stevenson, T. (2024). The importance of Black cultural centers, student unions, and faculty organizations in higher education. Black History at the University of Idaho. Retrieved from: https://www.lib.uidaho.edu/blackhistory/features/importance-of-blackculturalcenters.html

Vega, B. E. (2019, January). Lessons from an administrative closure: The curious case of Black space at an MSI. Frontiers in Education 3(88), 1-14. https://doi.org/10.3389/feduc.2018.00088 

Books: 

Hernandez Rivera, S. & McElderry, J. A. (In press). Shaking the table: Survival and healing amongst identity center practitioners. Emerald Publishing.

Patton, L. D. (2010). Culture centers in higher education: Perspectives on identity, theory, and practice. Stylus.