Dawn Lee: This is where, you know, you go and do your homework, you talk about right. What is, what is fair, and what is equitable. Please do not do anything for free, okay? Please, please, please. I know everyone’s like, that’s a great opportunity. This is a great way to get your experience and all that stuff. Please don’t do anything for free.

Because what you’ll get out of it right, is definitely not only, you know , getting exposure to all of this stuff, but. You’re, you’re gonna be doing all this extra work, so please, you know, get compensation for that. And then the last thing I’ll say in terms of recommendations is just make sure that you take time to identify what are the things you want out of this interim experience.

It should align. I know it’s so hard because it’s so awesome to feel wanted. People want you, you know, to step up and do this role.

Keith Edwards: Hello and welcome to Student Affairs. Now I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Interim leadership can be complex for the individual and the institution. Today’s guests have all experience as interim leaders in very different personal, professional, and institutional context. To today, we’ll get to hear what they have learned to both to help both leaders and institutions navigate these roles as effectively as possible.

So grateful for all three of you for being here. And can’t wait for the conversation. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesday, so you can find details about this episode or browse the archives@studentaffairsnow.com.

This episode is sponsored by Evolvee. Evolvee is a series of leadership coaching journeys designed to bring clarity, capacity, confidence, and compassion. Empowering courageous leadership to reimagine the future of higher education. With my colleagues Brian Ara and Don Lee, who is with us today. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards.

My pronouns are he, him, his, I’m a speaker, author, and coach, empowering higher ed leadership for better tomorrows for us all. Through leadership, learning, and equity. You can find out more about me@keithedwards.com, and I’m recording this from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which is at the current and ancestral homelands of both the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples.

Let’s get our guests in here. I’d love for you each to introduce yourselves a little bit and especially your experience with interim roles. So Dr. Leticia Williams, get us started.

Letitia Williams: Sure. Thank you so much for the invitation, Keith, and I’m looking forward to the conversation. I’m Dr. Leticia Williams. I am the interim Vice President for Student Affairs and Dean of Students at Morgan State University.

My career has, I’ve been in higher ed now. I won’t say how long ’cause I will not date myself, but multiple institution types, different countries. That has shaped my approach to the work of student affairs as well as to leadership and leadership development. I will say that this is my first interim role.

I have not served as an interim before, and I’ve been serving in the role for about nine months now. And, it, the complexities of being in a leader in student affairs at this level I think a little bit multiply because you’re, I’m sitting in two roles as an interim leader, but that’s where I come into this conversation about interim leadership.

Keith Edwards: Beautiful. Thank you. And Dr. Ed Gal, tell us a little bit more about you in some interim roles.

Ed Cabellon: Yes. Thanks Keith. Thank you for the invitation. It’s great to be with everyone today. I’m Dr. Ed Cobell. I use he, him pronouns, and I proudly serve Frederick Community College as its interim vice President for student experience.

This is my second interim gig where I’ve come in from the outside to serve as an interim. First at Montgomery College last year and now at Frederick Community College in Maryland. I’m looking forward to the conversation today.

Keith Edwards: Awesome. Thank you and Dr. Don Lee and I get to spend lots of times through our Evolvee, so it’s good to see you and have a different conversation to today.

Tell us more about you, Don.

Dawn Lee: Yeah, thank you again, Keith, for the invitation and so good to be in community with both Dr. Williams, Dr. Cian. Very good. So hello everybody. My name is Dawn Lee. She they pronouns. I am a consultant and a coach. A lot of my clients hire me to help them figure out how to manage and create plans around hard change.

So hard change institutions in higher education and in nonprofits and hard change, anything to do with organizational restructure, budget reductions, all of the really difficult sticky things. So I do a lot of consulting work, which. Connects to the executive coaching work that I do which then also connects to the fractional or interim roles that I have had an opportunity to have in the past.

I’m currently not an interim role. I’ve had three interim roles before and am a fractional leader and really excited to share more about those experiences in our conversation.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Awesome. Let’s open up here. Now that we’ve done introductions, get you all here on the screen. I’d like each of you to give each of you an opportunity, what you’ve learned from your own unique journeys.

Ed’s in this multiple external role. Leticia is in this internal role Don is in multiple roles. Don, I wanna start with you. You use this term interim and. Fractional. Are those interchangeable or are those slightly different? Maybe you just clear that up for folks who maybe aren’t as familiar.

And then what have you learned from your own unique interim journey?

Dawn Lee: Yeah. I use those words interchangeably, but I feel like fractional really encompasses not only what happens in higher education, but also education as adjacent organizations. But fractional the term really comes from industry.

And so within higher education, we use the word interim, but they’re one and the same. The difference. Two between fractional and interim is that and we have our differences here. We have internal interims, and then we have external right interims. So Ed and Leticia are we’ll probably talk a little bit about that.

The second part of your question. Which is about, what have I learned or what’s unique, to my interim journey, and this is connected to the question that people ask me all the time, they’re so curious, how did you get, your interim role? What, where did that come from?

And you’ve been interim so many times, like, how does that happen? Is there like a place I can go to do this? So a lot of the interim roles that I’ve had, and this connects to my learning, right? I’ve actually come from consulting work, that I’ve done before project work that I’ve done, and then the executive coaching work that I do as well.

It’s a great entry point for folks who are curious, right? If I’m working on an interim if I’m working on a project, then what ends up happening is become, is that I become essentially a very niche expert in that specific thing, and I really take time to get to know. Not only the immediate partners, campus partners in that work, but I take advantage of all of the other stakeholders who may have some.

The touch points with the work. And it’s really wonderful process because not only am I doing this highly impactful work through my consulting work but I’m broadening and I’m helping other stakeholders understand why it’s important that we’re doing, this specific thing on this campus.

And that’s resulted in a lot of, conversations about potential interim, roles. And then in the the senior leadership coaching, right? Working with senior leaders helping them figure out how to make really tough decisions. I should say that has led to interim opportunities, but I have a very unique approach to doing interim opportunities.

I don’t take any kind of interim op opportunity. And you know what, I’m gonna, I’m gonna leave that at a little cliffhanger for some of the stuff that we’re gonna talk about later, but that’s what I’ll share for now.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Thank you, Don. Thank you Don. Leticia, what have you learned through your unique interim journey that you’re still in?

Letitia Williams: That I’m right. So full disclosure that I’m still in. So I, when I came to, in my current institution, I was the number two. And then when my, the vice president was retiring, I was asked to serve in the interim role. I had, like I said before, never served in an interim role. So one of the things that I learned for me, that I’ve said repeatedly is that for me, it’s been an interesting headspace.

Because I’m internal, I feel I’m betwixt and between I’m not the VP I. That position is act. There’s actually a search for the position, and so I’m in the role, am I aspiring to the next or the permanent role? It’s a kind of in-between Headspace and so for me, what I’ve learned is really.

I did, I’m also a coach, so I did a lot of self coaching in this for myself in terms of really clarifying who I am, how my identity is connected to the role what are my aspirations, what are my options? I think that’s really clear. When I accepted the role, and I think what I’ve learned is also getting clarity about what is the expectation during the interim period.

I’m not gonna just run off and do all sorts of things, which can also be, I think, a temptation. So what is the expectation? But also I grounded myself in terms of, apart from yes, these are the expectations in my case of the president. What is needed for the division to continue to move forward.

And I anchored that to the strategic priorities of the institution. So we’re not just, doing anything we want to do. I think the last thing for me is that. Leadership is connected all through the institution. And I had to also be mindful that some of that interim headspace that I was experiencing my team was experiencing, right?

Because so many things come at us in student affairs, folks are really busy. And so now if you give them something else to do, it’s is this gonna last because you’re interim, so is this work interim? And so really being transparent with the team about even my head space, but also the work that we’re doing and making sure that we kept building things that we’re really gonna be.

Impactful in the long term for students and the institution and managing, things that might have been peripheral, but I think those are some things. Yeah.

Keith Edwards: I appreciate that. I think that clarity is interesting because I think some people are. Expected to be interim and keep an even keel and not shake things up until there’s a permanent leader.

And some are explicitly told, I need you to shake things up, do the hard stuff so when the new leader comes in, they don’t have to make all these unpopular decisions. So it can be a really different role and probably everything in between there. Ed, what do you want to add here?

Ed Cabellon: Sure. I think my journey is a little different, and I’ll start with the fact that I think I will age myself here.

I’ve almost 30 years now and have served in student affairs roles throughout that period of time. And in my second vice presidency at Curry College in Massachusetts, small, private liberal arts college, I was the VP of enrollment. And after four years of being there, the president retired and a new president came in and shook things up.

And I was part of that. I was unfortunately part of the shakeup that happened there. And so I found myself for the first time in my career really trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. And I think the le, one of the lessons I learned in this is that you build your network throughout your career for times when you need to activate it.

Help. And I had put myself out there on LinkedIn saying that I was in between, that I was looking, that this had happened against advice of some of my colleagues who said no. Don’t put your stuff out there, just do the thing and reach out. And I said, you know what? I’m just gonna put myself out there.

It’s, it’ll be okay. And because of that Dr. Jermaine Williams, who’s the president of Montgomery College in Maryland reached out and said, I saw that you were. In between, would you be interested in serving as an interim? Our vice president, our senior Vice president for student affairs, just took a presidency and is leaving and would love to see.

And we had known each other because we were VPs in the community college SEC system in miss in Massachusetts. He was A-P-S-A-I was WP so we had been in affinity groups together, so we knew each other, we knew each other’s work. And at the time when I took that interim gig in the summer of 24.

My family, my house, everything is here. Like it’s in Massachusetts.

And I had to think of it to myself. That I wanna do, where I want to be traveling back and forth for an interim gig. And for me, the learning opportunity was because this was an opportunity that was in a different state a different community college system, and a chance for me to broaden my horizons my family.

And I thought it was the right decision. And I know colleagues who are doing the, there, there are more and more colleagues that I know who are doing these types of interim gigs or fractional, as Dawn had said. Because they’re great opportunities. It really challenge your challenges, what your knowledge and thinking are in a different environment.

And after my Montgomery College interim last year moving to Frederick this year, I asked for a two year contract. And I asked for a two year contract ’cause of what I learned in the first year of doing a one year con interim knowing, to Leticia’s point that it’s hard to figure out what you can do, even though you do get a scope of work.

You find things in the interim, especially coming in from the outside where you have fresh eyes and you just start naturally asking questions and you start naturally saying. Why and how did we get here? And what if we tried this and what if we tried that? And so I think that the biggest lesson I’ve taken away is that interim roles can be accelerators to change because of the posted finite nature of the role that you only are, you have a shelf life, and then within that shelf life.

You’ve been asked to do the scope of work and you’re gonna get it done because that’s what’s been asked of you. And that urgency is an advantage in pushing along change that may not happen with a permanent person who wants to take their time and slow down. And I’ll end by saying that, I think if you’re serving in a VP role, everyone’s interim right now.

I think the Academy right now is such, I just calling it interim. I know many of my colleagues who feel like. At any moment because we’ve seen it with our colleagues across the country. True. We really all are serving in interim. These are contracts that are at will for the most part.

But I’ve definitely learned a lot and growing from this, from the interim experience.

And I’ll share more about that as we move forward.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Wonderful. That’s such a great start and gives us perspective that each of you are bringing. I wanna say that we’re gonna, these next two questions are paired. And so I just wanna share with our audience. So first I’m gonna ask, what about leaders who are thinking about considering or sometimes told they’re taking an interim role should think about?

And then second, what should institutions think about who maybe are considering an interim role for a period of time? We’ll talk about the. The person and then the organization next. But I do want to begin with if there are people in our audience who are watching or listening to this who think an interim might come up at their institution or another institution, or they’ve been invited or they’re considering it.

Or as Don and I were recently at the naspa, A VP, people were like. You got asked, I was told I’m moving into this interim role. I, there was, you could say no. That thought never even occurred to me. So yes, considering invited told, what would you want people to think through as they consider that?

We’ll begin with you, Leticia.

Letitia Williams: I think. The context that you’re in. I think you really have to know your institutional context because a lot of how the interim role shapes out, I think is also based on the culture of the institution. So I think you really have to think about that. I think you gotta make sure.

Can you ask, and do you think you would get clear expectations? And I’m talking about it from the perspective of an internal interim because those expect without them and I think Ed might be able to say this, but I just feel not having done what Ed has done that. In an external interim role there.

They’re challenges, but they’re different challenges. So internally I’m like managing what was where we were externally. I’m like, I don’t know. I, and so I think you gotta make sure that expectations are as clear as they can be. I also think for practitioners, because sometimes I think especially in student affairs, there’s.

We are so close to the work that we often don’t talk about some of the economics of the work. And so even just the co the what’s, is there gonna be an increment? Is there, are there gonna be resources and have like really clarifying. The questions is someone below me gonna also be made interim so that they can help and take some of the lifting?

I think those are really some of the things. And then I think you gotta think about if, do you, what’s gonna happen if they post this? Are they gonna invite you to. To apply for the role. Are they gonna leave you in the role? Try and get clarity on some of that so that, professionally in terms of your own trajectory, you have as much kind of, scope as you can, even though the role is interim.

Keith Edwards: Yeah, I appreciate that. ’cause I think I, I’ve heard from folks who are in similar roles to you that, if you want the permanent role, you better take the interim. ’cause it’s your best way to prove yourself. And in other structures, if you take the interim role, you cannot apply for the permanent role.

It’s the conflict. And so just being clear about some of those things as you navigate through that this is there. There are places in higher ed where things are similar across context. This seems to be like. Every context is just up for grabs and it could be completely different from one to one, as I see all three of you nodding your heads at that.

Okay, good to know. Ed, what would you want folks who are considering interim roles to be thinking through?

Ed Cabellon: So I would offer, if you are on the outside, looking at taking a role, obviously my situation was as a result of structural change at my previous institution. But I do think there’s value in folks who are looking to move who are ready to go to a different type of institution or a different part of the country or whatever.

And. If the market is right now, not, in their favor to think about putting themselves out there, being open for interim roles, to say, to search firms, to say to colleagues that, look I’m searching, I’m also open to searching for interim roles. I think saying that as part of your process is gonna be important, the why behind it.

You’ve gotta be super clear because, if there are. And you’ve, if there are open interim roles, you typically find out about it through networking. It’s not gonna be something that’s posted. I have not seen too, unless they’re through the registry. So unless they’re through a firm, I don’t see a lot of interim.

Roles, and I apparently was I did not have the proper experience to be part of the registry at the time of when I was in between. I would say to really think about just speaking that truth, that you would be open to that idea so that, because the reality is if you are coming in from the outside, there’s less of a search process for a formal search process.

It’s really light, I would say. Like I got to meet with. The staff I was supervising with Cabinet on Zoom just to get a sense for how we’d work together. If the president is making that call, eventually, he’s, he, she, they are gonna make sure that they, that the person is gonna fit, at least for the time being.

Keith Edwards: And could you just say a little bit about the registry? ’cause I think. This is one of those things that I learned about halfway through my career, and I had no idea. Could you just

Ed Cabellon: Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. So quickly, the registry is is, it’s a firm that matches interim roles with professionals who more often than not have retired.

Who have completed. Their full-time career in, in, in a, in an executive position, but who are open to short-term assignments, whether it’s a year, 18 months, six months, it could be fractional work. And when you sign up to be part of the registry, you interview, you are vetted. And if you’re, if you become part of the registry, the agreement is that.

You will not apply, you will not be allowed to apply for the permanent role. That if you are placed by the registry in an interim role, you’ve acknowledged a, you’re doing this for the part, for the term that’s been established and that you’re not going to apply for the full-time role. What I’ve liked about both these processes is that.

It was clear from the beginning whether I was able to apply and what the process would be. And I’m, and I had clarity on both, for both Montgomery and now Frederick. I am aware of what that is going to look like moving forward. And so I think knowing that, and I would just say in terms of just that, the last thing I’ll say about advice for folks thinking about this.

Is that it’s so important to know what that scope of work they’re looking for. Like it has to be clear that there are three things we need you to do in this one year interim, A, B, and C, and that’s it. And that clarity is baked into the contract. It’s baked into however you talk about it with other people.

Like it has to be aligned because otherwise. Other things could creep in that you didn’t know about or sign up for it. Are there personnel things you’re gonna have to deal with? Are there larger community stuff that you’re walking into knowing why the job is open as an interim is part of that due diligence that I would advise folks to do before they went into either, that agreement of, okay I’ll think about it.

Or I want to get go to the opportunity.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Awesome. Don, what would you add?

Dawn Lee: Wow. So much good stuff here. And for listeners, I would definitely replay this last section that you just heard because Leticia and Ed like just said so much stuff. I had to cross stuff off my list that I wanted to mention.

I. Okay. So I realized I forgot to actually talk about how I came into interim work, right? Because that actually connects to some of the recommendations. So my first job, my first interim was actually as an internal. I was over at uc, Berkeley, and I was an interim associate dean of students.

There. I need to give a real huge shout out to at the time Joseph Dray, who was the dean of students, who’s now over at Columbia, and then also David Surat, who’s at university of Oklahoma. And that the belief. Both of them to be able to do this role really enabled me to cut my teeth in doing interim work.

So that’s probably one of the first things I would say is, even get to know people within your own organization who, if you’re curious about this. Express that I think somebody said earlier, say it, just say the things that you’re interested in. Especially with people who can look out for those opportunities for you.

And it’s really Joseph and David who gave me that first opportunity And it was such a unique role at that time. And to what Leticia was talking about, I had to juggle both roles. Being very clear and I didn’t do a good job, but of this the first time, not because of, Joseph or David.

It was just ’cause I didn’t know any better, right? Asking those questions, what’s my, what are the things that I’m focusing on, what are some of the priorities in this role? I didn’t, I wasn’t clear on that. And learning from that, absolutely underscored, you know what has been said before.

The other thing that I didn’t do right, is that. I went in assuming that I had to just embody the role like wholesale, just right from the beginning. I had to do everything. I had to learn all the things right. This in connection to one, to the first one, right? But what that has, what that created and what a lot of people talked to me about about interim role is that you’re like a warm body.

That’s in the you’re just holding space. You’re not really, you’re holding space for the next person. Okay. And that’s it’s really important that, you don’t go into a role like that because you can’t do that, especially if you’re internal. You can’t even do that if you’re like an external.

I will, however, give myself credit, the one smart thing that I did do was that Joseph at the time wanted me to come in to be interim for a year. And I said, I don’t think I can commit for a year. And I negotiated hard. I said, how’s this let’s try it out for six months. At the end of six months, let’s check in.

Let’s see how things are going, right? And then let’s talk about extending at six months. Or we just shake hands and we’re good. And it gave us both a way formally within that agreement to check in and then also amicably walk away if things were not, going well, which connects to the big recommendation that I have is that everything is negotiable, everything.

And you want to go in with this mentality and this is different from negotiating like a job offer, right? It, the negotiation in terms of an interim role is different, right? You. You really, especially as an internal person, this is your opportunity to bring your expertise of the scope of work that you need to, you think needs to happen.

So Leticia when you are in that, when you’re thinking about that role, I’m sure you knew what needed to be prioritized, right? And you have guide that priority making, right?

Letitia Williams: I did, yeah. I knew what were prioritized.

Dawn Lee: Yeah.

Letitia Williams: I think though it’s still a little tricky and it depends on your context because you could know what needs to be prioritized, but the fact that you’re still expected to sit and do both roles.

I think one of the things that I wrote down as you were speaking, Dawn, was now making your list of what you can’t do. Yes. Because it’s actually physically impossible to do all of it. And I think, yeah. I think that was, that is something. So yes, you set the priority list, but that also means there’s some things that are gonna have to drop off, even if they were personally important to you.

It’s just not possible to do all of it.

Dawn Lee: Yeah. And so for internal folks, this is the one thing, you can help guide that decision making and help, the senior leader understand this is what’s possible within this amount of time and with what’s going on in our context right now.

I would recommend that maybe we put these things on the shelf, right? And the other piece is in and. Connects to what Ed said is that based on the fact that you are in this hiring process, this is why I think these things should be prioritized, right? So really helping guide that and negotiating what’s possible, what’s not really set yourself up for success in the role.

And sets expectations. The other thing that’s part of negotiation too is negotiating the compensation. Oh my gosh, there’s so many. And Keith knows that, at the A VB conference, I was shocked to find that people were considering interim roles with a very poultry additional pay. You’re doing a whole nother, potentially a whole nother role with a whole bunch of lists of priorities, right?

This is where, you go and do your homework, you talk about right. What is fair, and what is equitable. Please do not do anything for free, okay? Please. I know everyone’s that’s a great opportunity. This is a great way to get your experience and all that stuff. Please don’t do anything for free.

Because what you’ll get out of it is definitely not only, getting exposure to all of this stuff, but. You’re gonna be doing all this extra work, so please, get compensation for that. And then the last thing I’ll say in terms of recommendations is just make sure that you take time to identify what are the things you want out of this interim experience.

It should align. I know it’s so hard because it’s so awesome to feel wanted. People want you, to step up and do this role. But think really clearly in some of the, the. Senior leadership coaching, when I do, especially with AVPs and with emerging leaders that are directors, right?

I’m like how do you benefit from this? What are the things that you want out of this? Yes, this gets you, more exposure. You get to add this on your resume, but be very intentional to make sure it aligns because it’s gonna be much more high stakes. ’cause you have, very clear deliverables.

Letitia Williams: I think the thing I wanted to add because during what you said, in terms of being clear, I think sometimes, you’re not, like for me, I’ve reported to presidents before, but somebody else in an interim role, say an A VP, who’s now becoming, serving as an interim VP who has not been a Chief Student Affairs officer before.

Understanding kind of the scope of the role, if you haven’t been to a cabinet and depe, or those kinds of things. And so for me, I think it’s also important to then see this as how am I gonna learn from folks who are actually in the substantive position? And so making sure that you’re network, and whether you wanna call it mentorship or whatever you wanna call it, that you are interacting.

If the role is VPSA, you’re interacting with VPs, A is who you can have some kind of candid conversations with. Because now you’re probably also experiencing things that you hadn’t, and you’re gonna have to be kinda learning at a very quick pace. And I think one of the ways to do that, because quite frankly, presidents are busy and one of the best ways to do that for me, I found is to really have those conversations with your VPSA network so that they are also giving you guidance because this is just a new thing that you’re doing and you haven’t been exposed.

To, to a lot of it before.

Dawn Lee: Yeah. And I’ll just add one more thing before we go to the next thing. Just one really quick thing. So in my other two interim roles, I was interim chief diversity Officer and interim associate Vice president and Dean of students. A hundred percent what you said, Leticia.

I had other folks within the organization to help me understand the scope of the role, but then also provide peer support and peer guidance so it doesn’t. You can have mentors and then also have peer people who can support you as well. So a hundred percent agree with that.

Keith Edwards: Some great suggestions for folks who are considering.

Now let’s move to what, if you’re at the institution and you’re thinking about an interim role, and should this be interim role, what should we open it up? How should we do it? How should we structure it? A lot of your feedback was make sure you have clear expectations, clear scope of work. You’re negotiating these things, so on the institution or their organization side, or maybe a president or maybe a VP who’s looking at an opening and thinking, I think intern might be the way to go here.

What do you want them to think about? What would you want them to think about? Ed, let’s start with you. What would you advise someone who’s thinking about opening something to interim? To be sure to be clear about.

Ed Cabellon: Yeah, it’s a great question and I think where I would start is to ensure that if an interim role is the right direction for the institution at the time of the decision, that you factor in the decision to do it either internally or externally.

Because both provide, both will provide a way forward, but differently if you decide to go externally. How does that impact people on the inside who may have expected to be tapped? And what does that signal to them if they’re not, if they aren’t, if they aren’t selected as an interim.

I think that has an organizational, cultural pieces to consider as a president or a leader looking at, filling that leadership gap at for the time.

I would also want folks to think about how might you have staff voice in that decision to ensure that the oppor people have the opportunity to voice what do we need at this time? And then not just as a cabinet, you may have some understanding of what’s happening in the area, but as someone leaves for whatever reason you may need to lean on other folks’ perspective to say.

If we bring an interim for any period of time, here are the pros and cons and what are the trade-offs I think are gonna be important. The last thing I would offer is that if this is a position that you decide to hire either an external firm or use a network for, I think that’s gonna be important because it sets up the di the structure for the future in terms of what you end up doing.

And I know there have been many folks who are in the middle of. Accreditation in the middle of a new president who’s come in or there’s something with the local community that’s happening that they have to factor in. And so I think it is a multi-factor approach in deciding whether to stay internal for the internal role or go external.

One size will not fit all, but I think those are some of the things I would ask that those people think about.

Keith Edwards: Great. Don, what would you add?

Dawn Lee: Yeah. I think the only things I would add and I’ve advised executive leaders on interim whether or not interim roles are appropriate.

So this is a interesting question ’cause it’s like it’s from the other side now. I think if you’re an interim, if you are an executive leader and you’re listening to this podcast, you’re like, why should I have? So just a couple of high level things. Number one it is a great way to create capacity.

At whatever level to get that project or get that one thing done, especially if you can define it clearly and make it time bounded, it is a very cost efficient way to do that. Okay. Especially if you get the right interim person in to be able to do it. There’s only upside, to all of this.

It helps. The institution continue moving towards a collective goal too. And so a lot of executive leaders decide to do interim roles because they’re building an area or they’re, they there’s a leadership gap, right? So it, it is a, is an opportunity to continue helping the organization moving forward.

So there’s really. I think at that high level, those are probably like the biggest things in terms of whether the the appropriateness is there, as Ed was saying, this connects to what I was saying earlier in terms of how I negotiate, right? Is that I often don’t take an interim role unless there is a plan for a hire right?

End. I always negotiate for me to be able to onboard and to stay on, to be a coach for this new person hired because you can see this interim position as not only getting a new person in, but setting them up for success, setting the area up for success, and ultimately setting the institution up for success.

So if you are considering an interim role for your organization. It’s really good to think about it holistically, in that way, because how often do you hire a new VP and they’re just expected to perform from day one and there’s nobody there, to help onboard them. So it’s worth it to commit those extra resources to have that overlap between the interim and the full-time hire.

And then if it’s an internal person like Leticia. Being very clear about how you’re going to prioritize the things on Leticia’s plate so that she can be successful in her interim role and also the other hats that she’s wearing, right? So I think that intentionality helps set everybody up for success.

Letitia Williams: I

Keith Edwards: love to, yeah. And here, before we get to Leticia, that I think it’s really important to distinguish if you are moving up into an interim role. Or are you doing the old job and doing the job above you in an interim role? So are you also, are you just now the interim vp or are you the interim VP and the A VP Dean of students, or is someone else taking on those responsibilities?

I think sometimes that gets forgotten and I’ve seen things where four people all move up, right? But the last person had to do their new job and the old job. For a long time, a lot more than nine months. And so just being clear about that’s a different task to move up into a new role versus move into a new role and maintain the old role at the same time.

So to be clear about what is fair I think Don said what is fair and what is equitable, right? I think that’s really important language. Yeah.

Letitia Williams: I think just underscoring from my perspective what I think, an executive should consider the, that interim structure that you just talked about Keith.

I think that’s really critical, like having a plan for that. In terms of helping whoever’s moving up. Is everybody moving up? What is gonna look like and thinking realistically about the work? I think that is one thing. I think the timeline, even from an internal perspective, needs to be clear.

I have, this has not been my experience, but I have seen other people where you’re in interim and two years have gone and nothing’s happened. And so I think really being clear. From the beginning and then clear with the person who you’re asking to step into the interim role about a kind of sense of the timeline and the expectations.

Should this person apply for the position or should they not apply for the position? From an internal perspective, are we selecting you because you are the top person right now, or the person with the most experience, we’re not gonna really, you gotta, I think those things from the person who’s asking or developing this interim role, they need to think about those things.

I think the compensation as well needs to be clear and I would encourage people to be fair. Because especially if you’re asking someone realistically, it ends up being, I think even with any interim structure, you’re gonna be doing two roles, right? You, there’s never enough of us. You’re gonna be doing two roles.

And so I think thinking about the compensation and then some, what Ed was outlining to me, ed, I wrote down the word respect. Like how do we do this in a respectful manner? How do we develop a respectful process, respectful of the individual who’s serving, respectful of their teams, who are also gonna have to pitch, hit respectful of the institution, respectful of the work that has been taking place.

So that those conversations that Dawn talked about in terms of kind of an ED about really defining scope and expectations, I think those are all things, and then let’s talk about clearly about what is not gonna change, right? Because I think you get into an interim role. You’re doing two jobs, but especially if you’re going to the VP level, then you start seeing things about budget and hiring and maybe some HR issues.

And you also wanna be able to know, can I touch this? Should I not touch this? And you wanna be have some clarity about those things.

Ed Cabellon: Keith, can I just add one more thing because

Keith Edwards: yes, but I would just say when Leticia mentioned HR issues, all the heads noded in agreement and these knowing smiles came out.

So I just, little context, but go ahead, ed.

Ed Cabellon: I would just offer one more piece because the HR thing definitely triggered something for me. I would be asking questions either. If you are thinking about taking a role or if you are posting and looking for someone that you clearly define whether your faculty is unionized, because there have been things that.

I wasn’t aware of or that things that you may expect to be a certain way, but it’s not in certain unionized environments. And so if you’ve never worked in a unionized faculty environment and you’re going to one, there’s a learning curve that you’d have to get up to speed very quickly on. Luckily, I’ve had that in my career, so I was comfortable sitting across with.

Faculty representatives, and, all these different various types of unions. Not just faculty unions, but other types of unions. But I think that there’s just these nuances that as an interim is different than if you’re just still if you’ve been, if you’ve experienced it as an employee because you’re now moving up versus coming in from the outside.

So I just wanna add that as. Something else to consider

Letitia Williams: Ed, I will underscore please, if you’re stepping into the room,

Keith Edwards: I think we got an amen there,

Letitia Williams: right? Just read every manual there is. Read the administrative manual. Meet the meet, meet me. Read the, the folks who are in the union and their ma read all the manuals because especially at the VP level, you’re gonna have HR issues.

And even if it’s not in the scope, as Dawn said, reach or it’s defined, they’re gonna come up. ’cause that’s really what the work is at that level. And you don’t wanna be caught unawares.

Ed Cabellon: That’s right. And I just to be clear, I love my, my, my union colleagues love my faculty, love, love them all. Same

Letitia Williams: here.

Ed Cabellon: Love them. They make me better. Yeah. They’re just so lovely and I’m grateful for them.

Keith Edwards: Good. Good.

Dawn Lee: Can I ask a question? Keith, do you have time for me to ask ’em a question?

Keith Edwards: Yeah, as long as it’s quick.

Dawn Lee: Okay. Okay. So Leticia mentioned something really wonderful that I don’t want to get lost in the sauce, right?

Which is that. All of the teams are also going through an interim experience. So I just I just want you both to say a little bit more about how do we prepare, or what is that to think about from the team’s perspective. Because I think in connection with this last question about recommending the institutions this is where we can also help institutions help set the interim person up for success.

Leticia, ed, do you have anything there to share?

Letitia Williams: Sure. So for me, I can, I’ll speak very personally. There was a. We were actually developing a curriculum which shameless plug Keith started us off with that work. And so anybody who’s looking to develop a student affairs curriculum should yes reach out to Keith.

And he did not ask me to say that, but that had become so core to the work that I felt it was really important to speak to the team about how we were gonna move forward with that, and that was gonna continue to be a priority. And why? And just understanding that I was doing the speaking with the team.

Like I knew that they were going through this and I was doing, I was communicating very openly with them. I’m not talking about, we’re all kumbayaing, but I’m gonna say this is interim. And so it’s probably gonna feel like that to you. You have, vested interest in your work, in decisions and so on.

And so I’m gonna be as transparent as possible. Also knowing that now I’m shifting into this role and there’s now, like now I’m the senior leader and there’s not everything in the cabinet that I can say to the team. But being mindful of the communication and from the, executive, the pre, let’s say the president’s perspective being, understanding that this is a team process.

And so that’s why it’s also important to be clear what’s the timeline going to be, even when you introduce the interim to the community, setting the expectation already. So there’s a certain less ambiguity in terms of what that looks like.

Ed Cabellon: I would just only offer a resource in this respect that Dawn has called out and Isha, you’ve spoken brilliantly on managing Transitions by William Bridges is a wonderful book that provides a framework to help your team.

Go through these types of transitions. It was so helpful for me in terms of a framework at both Montgomery and now at Frederick that it reminded me of that important, the importance of as a leader, caring for the team in that way to ensure that they were doing okay through the process.

Keith Edwards: Beautiful. We’ll give Don a co-host credit for asking the question there.

Thanks Don. We are running out of time and this podcast is student affairs. Now we always like to end with what are you thinking troubling or pondering now. So we’ll hear from each of you. What’s on your mind might be related to this interim conversation or other things, and also if folks want to connect with you, might, where might they be able to do that?

Dr. Williams. What are you troubling thinking or pondering? Now?

Letitia Williams: You know that’s a big list, right? What’s at the top? I’m really it at the top right now, given the context that I think we find ourselves in higher education with all the things in the landscape. I’m really thinking about leadership development for persons coming.

Next I’m finding folks who are saying to me, I am gonna continue to do good work where I am. I do not want to step up and I am clocking it to retirement.

And I’m trying to think about how do we continue to form leaders, how we are transparent in the role, but also developmental so that we are shaping the next generation of leaders.

I, I am. Finding that there are folks who’ve figured out that 55 is now a great age to retire from higher education, and I think we’re gonna have a great leadership deficit if we’re not really much more intentional in providing people things like coaching. Evolvee all the things. I think we’re gonna have a significant gap, and I’m really concerned about that.

That’s one of the things I’m concerned about, even as I’m thinking of my own position as an interim and I’ve had to coach myself and get coaching. I think that is, we’re gonna have to really spend some time thinking about leadership development in higher education. So that’s on my mind.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Here.

How about you, ed?

Ed Cabellon: What’s on my brain right now? What I’m pondering are two things. One is ’cause of my background in, in researching technology. AI has been such a thing that I have been diving into with my team and with colleagues across the country and adjacent to the AI integration and how it.

Will change the way we work. The way we learn, the way we interact with each other is this idea of friction literacy. And what I mean by friction literacy is because of where we are with technology and how less. When you look at. Folks the development of young folks today, and I have two young adult children 18 and 20, and the notion of supervising multi-generational staff where when friction hits there, there doesn’t seem to be as much of that sitting in that space, feeling the discomfort, having hard conversations, and the friction.

Literacy, I think is creating space in a time where the liberal arts will most likely have a comeback because of ai, because of the use of AI in classrooms more formally that we need to think about how student affairs plays a role in teaching folks how to. Go through friction, go through uncomfortable conversations.

And I worry that if we don’t do that, we’re gonna continue to see a sliding away from, forget critical thinking. Forget. It’s important critical thinking, creative thinking. If I can’t get you to sit in a room with me to have hard con, we can’t even get to that stuff. ’cause you’re gonna you’re exiting stage.

And so that’s what I’m thinking about.

Keith Edwards: Don, you get the last word.

Dawn Lee: Yeah. Wow. I could not have connected with you both, e even, what I wrote down was like future, right here. I was ready to talk about future and what’s on my mind. I think first of all, let me answer the last question first.

I have a bunch of a series coming out on interim leadership roles next week. And if you all are interested in that LinkedIn is the best way to get connected with me. It’s at Don Lee PhD on LinkedIn. Listeners feel free to connect with me there. So that’s here. We’ll start next week.

LinkedIn newsletter. But the thing that I have been thinking a lot about right, is actually there’s some, a lot of really interesting writing that’s futures thinking, writing. About not only the future of, higher education, but how do we create solutions differently That a lot of the things that we’ve been doing in the past is it’s still great strategies and tactics, but no longer right, as effective, right?

Tracy Worley’s work. Also all the people returning to Octavia Butler, all of the future thinking work, is very, is where my head space is at right now. And this connects to what Leticia was talking about in thinking about what leadership development, the future of leadership development looks like.

Especially we are in an environment in higher education where this next admission cycle, we’re gonna feel that cliff really hard. Really hard. Okay. With the number of consolidations that’s happening, growing internationalization of higher ed institutions, right? This topic of leadership development is gonna be huge.

And this is why I think this conversation of interim roles is so crucial and important right now because we’re gonna see the proliferation of interim roles even more so in higher education with a number of people who don’t. Who are retiring because they don’t wanna deal with AI and things like that anymore.

And then the number of disillusioned early career professionals who are still feeling the impacts of COVID, but realizing that it’s a very challenging job market. This huge reshuffle of all the leadership roles. I think we’re gonna see a greater increase in interim roles. So folks who are listening, I wouldn’t count, don’t count out interim roles.

It could be a really critical part of your future.

Keith Edwards: Awesome. Thanks to all three of you. I’ve known all three of you for a while and I really appreciate you coming and sharing having this shared interim experience, but as folks have heard really different versions of that perspective.

So thanks to all of you for your leadership. Your perspective and your insights and your willingness to share some of your experience so openly and so transparently. It’s been super, super helpful. So thanks to all of you. I also want to thank our sponsor of today’s episode, which is Evolvee, which Don and I are involved in.

Higher education, as you just heard, is facing unprecedented challenges and needs. Courageous leadership now more than le more than ever, and poor leadership has never been more costly. At Evolve Institute, we are empowering a new generation of leaders with the capacity to turn these challenges into possibilities and lead with and through them.

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If you’re so inclined, you can leave us a five star review. It really helps us reach even more folks with great conversations like today’s. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks to our fabulous guest today, and to everyone who is watching and listening, make it a great week. Thank you all.

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