becky martinez
Yeah. Mamta, as you said, value like centering humanity, right? And this really gives us the opportunity to do that in some critical ways. And like we know, you know, even performative of HA, how do we take a land acknowledgement, right, and have it like, be meaningful? How do we learn from it? How do we like, connect it with indigenous communities, right? And so many things can start out feeling performative, and then what is our like? What is our intention to make it sustainable, make it impactful, and and it is, how do we get back to that like humanity, centered value, centered space.

Keith Edwards
Keith, hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW I’m your co host Keith Edwards, joined today by my co host Mamta Accapadi. Today, we’re discussing the politicization, which is a hard word to say, of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, work, and how campus leaders can lead through the shifting landscape with integrity and effectiveness. We are joined by three incredible leaders with decades of experience on these topics, who have worked with hundreds of campuses on these issues. I’m really glad to have all of them here, and really looking forward to this conversation for all of our sake and for my own learning as well. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs, we release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairs now.com This episode is sponsored by Evolve. Evolve empowers higher ed leaders to lead with and through perilous times by releasing fear, gaining courage and taking action through an executive coaching program, including individual and group coaching and an intentionally designed and curated curriculum to maximize impact and Huron. Huron education and research experts help institutions transform their strategy, operations, technology and culture to foster innovation, financial health and student success. As I mentioned, I’m your co host Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he, Him, him, he, him, his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, empowering exceptional Higher Ed Leadership for better tomorrows for us all through leadership, learning and equity. Can find out more about me at Keith edwards.com and I’m recording this from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which is at the intersections of the current and ancestral homelands of both the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples.

Mamta Accapadi
Hello, friends. I’m Mamta Accapadi. It’s great to be in community with all of you for this important conversation today. My pronouns are she, her, hers. And I am joining you all from Austin Texas. Austin, Texas is situated on the unseated ancestral homeland of the humanos, coahuiltecan, Comanche, lipanapaci and tonka peoples. And without further ado, let’s get into our conversation for today. So friends, if we can get if we can get started with introductions, feel free please introduce yourselves and share a bit about yourself, your career and your connection to our conversation. And let’s get started with Jamie Excellent.

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
Thank you. Hello, friends. So good to see you all and delighted to be here with you today. I’m Jamie Washington. My pronouns are he, him and his, and I am joining you from the unceded lands of the Piscataway canoe tribal nations here in the Baltimore, Washington area. I serve as the president of the Washington Consulting Group and the president and co founder of the Social Justice Training Institute, and excited to be here in this conversation with you all today.

becky martinez
Becky. Hello, Dr Becky Martinez, she her and hers, and I am joining you from Hemet, California, so very Southeast California, on the situation plans of the Cahuilla and museno people and land right and air and everything that that involves. I am the president of infinity Martinez consulting. I’m also faculty member with the social Genesis Training Institute as part of the next gen faculty is Jamie and the founders school students. Sit down. I get to be part of this space. I’m excited in this conversation with us here on the screen and with folks listening, Sam,

Rev. Sam Offer
thank you. My name is Sam. Offer pronouns, he him his. And I am also joining you all from the city of Baltimore, where the ancestral homelands of the Piscataway tribe. I am vice president of the Washington Consulting Group and faculty with the Social Justice Training Institute as well, and I think there are so many identities that is with me today, as we are in this conversation today, and I’m excited about what we get to do today as a group in this conversation.

Keith Edwards
Yes, awesome. Well, we’re so excited to have you all here and for this conversation. I think it’s obvious to all of our folks who are listening that there’s been a shift in the focus and the tone and the framing around diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, belonging, all of those terms. You all have been working with institutions and institution leaders, folks who you’re working with now, folks you’ve been working with over a long period of time, as we see this poll. Politicization and this backlash. I’m super curious how you see institutions and institution leaders navigating this politicization, which is, I don’t know why it’s so hard for me, the politicization, the pushback that’s so much easier around diversity, equity, inclusion, work. Jamie, do you want to kick us off here?

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
Sure, I will kick us off here, and I first want to start again, not only thanking Student Affairs now for hosting this conversation, but thanking all of you, not only who are joining us, but who are joining us live, but who will join us at any point in which you will connect to this conversation. I want to start with appreciation for your labor, for the work that you’ve done, the work that you are doing and the work that you are navigating in this moment. It is a challenging moment, but I want us to experience this moment in the context of culture change and so that that there has been amazing work done over the last 5060, years around in American higher education, around this whole notion of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, creating access for those who did not have access, higher education is the great equalizer that we understand and experience in our country. And the opportunities that are provided for the higher education is a very powerful opportunity moment. And so I share that because, again, as we think about what’s happening, that if you think about what, what we have been able to do in these last 5060, years is we’ve been able to invite folks into some information, some truth, some understanding about not only themselves, but about the history of our country and our world that folks did not have access to. The very notion that we are engaging this conversation with our pronouns, our land acknowledgements. These all speak to the progress of all of us mattering over these last that we’ve come to be more conscious about how all of us matter and in the ways in which we have been invisible eyes, right? And so it’s been very important for us to acknowledge that what we are experiencing now is backlash to the great work that has been done, right? It’s just and so there has been, and again, we’ve been through several cycles of it. There has been no culture change without resistance, right? And push back. And so I want us to just hold this and situate this in the good work that has been done. And so yes, lots of institutions are struggling. They’re trying to figure out what to do. Names are being changed, offices are being shut down, positions are being lost, and the pushback, the backlash, the personalization, has shown up in ways that are to put us in a frenzy, right to overwhelm us with expectations, starting from things that happen even before the last election, but particularly solidify with the Valentine’s Day Dear Colleague letter, And from that place folks have been in reaction, mostly, I’m happy to see us moving into response in a different way. But there’s been a lot of reaction around what has happened, and so it’s an impacts the programming, and it’s impacting the staff. You know, who’s there. It’s impacted again, folks navigating in this way of fear. So there’s a culture of fear around deib right now that has us backing away from or not fully living into our stated values, right? So as we state our values, not only as a country, but as institutions around all of our students mattering and so on. It’s been a space where folks have felt like we’ve got to protect ourselves and not necessarily focus on the values for which we came to the work.

becky martinez
Becky, you know, Jamie, thanks for grounding in the culture change piece. And I want us to remember that while this moment is intense, like we have experienced intense moments, right this this is at a different level. And as I think about the last 60 years or so with de and I and how it’s evolved, and you know where, where we’ve been focused and where we haven’t focused like we have lessons that we’ve learned that we can bring work in dealing with the pushback, dealing with the resistance, dealing with how people feel, how. They’re reacting. So I think that that is a piece as we navigate to remember the lessons that we’ve learned in these last 60 years. Because some of it isn’t, isn’t new. It may be new for some folks, and it may feel new for some folks, and there’s other folks like, okay, here we go. Here we go again. It just looks and feels, and the outfits a little different, and how do we continue forward? That’s what I would add.

Rev. Sam Offer
Yeah, if I can, I think what popped for me right here is that we also name that, that we have been challenged at an at ourselves as folks who do this work, right? And even though we’re having this conversation, we’ve been in those places where, where we’ve sat in fear, where, where we’ve had to go back to our own values and recenter ourselves. And so what we’re offering here, it’s something that we have to do, and that we continue to do as we’re in this process, as we as we’re continuing moving forward.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I love that framing about this is a sign of progress, this pushback in the backlash, that’s really helpful framing and the longer view of time. One of my favorite podcast hosts, Krista Tippett, from on being is always talking about the challenges of the time, which to me seems sort of overwhelming. She always talks about it as in this moment, and that’s just just that language of in this moment gives me, oh, there’s a bigger perspective, there’s a longer view. And I find that so helpful.

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
Yeah, yeah, I just, I was going to add that there’s a wonderful piece again, as folks are looking at, you know, how some of this is playing out. The Chronicle just did a very powerful piece around the DEI dilemma. There’s a focus piece that speaks beautifully to hear some of the things that are happening. Here’s some of the ways that institutions are responding. So if you’re looking again for a piece to share with your faculty, or share with your staff. There’s some really good, a really great professional development opportunity through just some of the writing that’s in that document.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, absolutely, you know, I think, I think about what the three of y’all are kind of inviting us to think about, and it’s, it’s a there, has been this we’ve had moments of time and resistance that’s constant in a lot of ways. And just as resistance evolves, the way that we recenter needs to evolve. And I think we’re kind of sitting in this evolutionary moment of how we choose to kind of center one another’s humanity with each other. But in that recentering, I would love to hear from, from y’all, what do you think in this in this moment, what does it look like to move from a, you know, what, what others may reference as a performative diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging approach to a more embedded, sustainable practice? Yeah.

becky martinez
Mamta, as you said, value like centering humanity, right? And this really gives us the opportunity to do that in some critical ways. And like we know, you know, even performative of HA, how do we take a land acknowledgement, right, and have it like, be meaningful? How do we learn from it? How do we like, connect it with indigenous communities, right? And so many things can start out feeling performative, and then what is our like? What is our intention to make it sustainable, make it impactful, and and it is, how do we get back to that like humanity, centered value, centered space. So this, while this moment just feels rough. How do we like? This is an invitation to, how do we have it be sustainable? What are like, what are our values? How are we being transparent? How are we communicating? How are we being in the space of accountability? Like, what are we doing with our data? Right? Because oftentimes we get lots of data, but like, really, what are we doing? And it’s like, for six months and a year out and five years out, what is our long term? What is our short term? Think some of the other things is we’re needing to have some really hard conversations, like, we’re needing to, like recenter, a courageous leadership like, what is a courageous conversation? What are the hard questions that we’re engaging in, you know, as we think about like, who do we want to be now? Who can we be now? And what are we willing to do, and what are we willing to compromise? Like, getting out of that perfection space, I think, is really important, yeah, and understanding the context, depending upon you know where an institution is located, I think really is important in the sustainable space. Who is your leadership? Where’s your board? What states? What are you really paying attention? To and wanting and needing. So those will be some of the things that, how do we have it stick? How do we be have it more than? How do we have it be more than this moment?

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
Yeah, I think, you know, Becky as you’re naming and the question for me, this notion that what deib has been right, you know, again, we in these last five years, we know after the murder of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and Ahmad Aubry, and all the things that happened in the resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement and all the work around trans lives mattering and so on, and Standing Rock, all the things that’s happened right in this space to really invite us into was that just performative? Or is this about what we really care about, right, and what really matters. And I was in a conversation with Dr Carmen Rivera last week, and she was talking with me about this whole notion that this value centered place where we are. Many of us who are on this and might be even listening, are really attached to the AIB being the right thing to do, right is going to be our downfall. Right in the context of higher education, if we, if we hang our hats only on that, and if we hang our hats on people not doing that, being wrong or not being focused in that way, being not the good people, then we’re in trouble. It is so critical that we run understand yes, that is a value position that that our institutions have named and said they hold. But that’s not the reason yes, that we need to be doing this work right, that we need to be preparing the next generation of leaders and creating campus environments where people can see themselves reflected in the faculty and the staff that are hired and so on, that we are addressing the issues of the world where there are clear health disparities and education disparities, and probably within our prison systems and so many places in which, if the folks who are coming through the four walls of higher education are not going out with an understanding How their identities matter, and the identities of others matter, and the histories matter, so that we understand how we got to the places then we set ourselves up, and so that what I have been talking with institutions about is, what’s the business case for this work? Why? What does this have to do with the business of higher education, right? And yes, we get to hold that it happens to be the right thing from our value position. And I wouldn’t even say that from the value position of some of the pushback and resistance that they would be in disagreement with it right? It’s simply some of the the way that we move about the work and the way that we engage the work, they might have us have that conversation differently, or do that differently. So I would, I would say that we want to pay attention to, in this moment, how we’re holding the value proposition and the rightness and and how we’re making people wrong if they don’t see it or hold it in the same way that we do.

Rev. Sam Offer
And that’s a courageous conversation, yes, right? And what we know it is also a messy conversation. Often we don’t want to step into the mess, right? And so it’s inviting us to really, to pull the curtains down, to dig in deeper, to shovel up some stuff, to get ourselves dirty, to have this conversation that will have it go from a performative place into a sustainable place, right? And I love that Dr Carmen Rivera brought that in, right? And that we get to hold that as we’re having these conversations. How do we move from this just valued place into deeper conversations about the institution?

Keith Edwards
Yeah, it reminds me of the notion that, would you rather be right, or would you rather be effective? Yeah, and I really like to be right, and it gets in the way of my ability to be effective. And I think what you’re reminding us is, let’s let’s focus less on being right. Let’s focus on what’s going to be effective, what’s going to create change, what’s going to create growth. Of well, maybe even protect some of these things. And I

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
think, I think that lots of the work that, particularly that we, one of the foundations of the social just training institute and Washington Consulting Group and infinity to consulting, is about moving us beyond being right, to being effective. It is moving us beyond either or thinking inviting us into that, and inviting us into considering what our investment is in a particular position and how that investment can can get in the way of the overall vision that we’re trying to achieve and trying to create spaces where we all matter. Yeah, that’s part of the tension and the this whole notion that this deib is about and for minoritized people is a misnomer. It’s not accurate, right? It is about preparing all of us to live and be effective in the world,

Mamta Accapadi
I think the way that we you know, one of my learnings, and I attribute this to Vernon wall, another educator, I think, you know, as we’re all in relationship, and it came through sjti. So this may not have directly, but I heard it from him, this idea of, what does everyone deserve, and what does no one deserve? Parameters of those of that conversation, as I’m hearing y’all speak, though, y’all I have to say, and as a former Multicultural Center staff, professional, a DIB, professional, you know, I think back at ways that I might do my work differently. I mean, if I’m being very vulnerable, how I would take care of myself differently. And the only thing that keeps going on in my head right now is you’re not going to program or workshop your way out of this. This is not like, I think if there’s another, like, there’s a universe of lessons I’m learning as an educator, and there workshops and programs are great, but that’s not, you know, that’s not this messy work, Sam, that you were referencing, right? And so I just, I want to just that learning was just sunk in with me. And so as I think about what our colleagues, our diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging colleagues are experiencing right now, and what’s being asked of them, how, what does protecting their wellbeing look like? You know, whether it’s collaborators with them on campus, whether it’s we’re members of that same, you know, functional area, collective, what does that look like right now?

Rev. Sam Offer
Yeah, and what a loaded question, right? Because we could spend the rest of this time right there, right? And I want to offer us three things that I feel like our deib professionals are being asked of right now, and one is as Jamie talked about appreciating the labor that has gone into the work that has been done around the EIB, they’re being asked to stop laboring right and to not to do what They’ve been called to do, or what they’ve been even hired to do, right? Many of them came into this work because doing their undergrad studies, they felt and experienced things that were needed, that was lacking, that wasn’t there, and they wanted to create a space that was better, right? And so one of the things that is being asked of them right now is to, is to not to do that, not to do that, to show up at work, doing something, but don’t do that, right? Do something, but don’t do that. The other thing that I think they’ve been asked to do is to navigate what’s going on in their own bodies while taking care of other individuals, right? Whether that’s students, whether that’s members who hired them, whether that is the president, right there, they’ve been asked to do all of those things, but to do it without really focusing on what’s happening in their own bodies, physically, emotionally. And we know when people are in places where they’re being challenged, it can be hard on their bodies, physically, it can be hard on them mentally, it can show up in all kind of ways. And so I think they’ve been many of our deib professionals have been asked to to continue to take care of the people that you’re supposed to take care of without saying you’re taking care of them, right, right? So, so do it, but don’t tell nobody you’re doing it right. And you can’t say this out loud, and we know what happened when we can’t speak it right, then we can’t have the community to support us in the ways that we needed to be done right? And so I think it’s important that we’re holding that and then thirdly, as I think about the work that that we do with a. Uh Martinez infinity with with the Washington Consulting Group, with other deib professionals, this time of the year is the time of the year that we set up and begin to help institutions and students to be able to engage the dynamics of diversity, equity and inclusion, right? And without that happening, we are leaving our institutions, our students in a bad way, right? And I know I was, I was just recently in at UC Davis, right? I was just out there in California warm weather, yay, right? And what I saw was that there was just such a need on the looks of the student space and the leaders who brought us in, for folks who do this work to be at the table, to continue to do it right. Not everywhere is that being seen. Because lots of people, as Jamie named from the beginning, are in fear and are willing to step across the lines, to step across the boundaries, to bring it in. But I saw the need there, and I think one of the things that we professionals are being asked to do is to not to do what matters to them and not to do what the institution needs so that the institution can survive. Because without them, the institution doesn’t know how to do it. Very powerful. And, yeah, go ahead. Becky, I heard, yeah.

becky martinez
So I, you know, think what is important in this moment, and I think so many moments before this and month, and I you’ve had conversations of like, how are we creating our boundaries, right? So, like, how are, you know, supervisors, role modeling boundaries. How are we taking care of ourselves, right? Dr Sarah for her dissertation was on social justice fatigue, right? So now we can really pay attention to, you know, our bodies. Am I fatigued? Am I taking time and space? How do I ask for that? How do I role model that for students, my identities are being targeted. How do I take care of myself? And that is, I think, really hard for Student Affairs practitioners already, because we’re so used to taking care of everybody else, and so it’s like, oh, like I matter in this equation, and that’s not selfish at all. Like that selfless, and I’m role modeling that for students and other staff and faculty and people at the institution, because if I’m literally sick, I cannot do my job right, and if I am not grounded like we can’t do our jobs. And so how are we creating space for ourselves in this emotional, spiritual, physical way, because well, being is so important and and in the attack, I think it’s even more important, right, like we can give to our institutions, our campuses, our structures in a more like whole space as we are able to protect our our well being. Also, like, let’s name our needs. Like, this is what I need, and that is new for so many of us, but I think, like, let’s put that on the list. Also, of ways to protect ourselves.

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
Well again, right there, Becky and Sammons, as you’re naming, as we talk about the what’s being asked, and then, how do we take care of this whole notion of well being? So there’s, there’s a energy in the in the country right now, around well being, right? And we know that our counseling centers, and I’m working with counseling centers, and it’s health centers and well being is mattering. The tension that we’re in right now with this pushback around deib is we can’t talk about why we unwell, right, and where the unwellness is happening from and so again, if you can’t name My pain is a race pain, my, my, my, my injury is gender identity based right if I can’t talk about where that’s come from, and there’s not an opportunity to diagnose the pain, what the history is of that pain, so that then we can get the right prescription to help us move through that pain, then we remain in pain, right? And so it’s the tension around what we can say and what we can’t say that that’s what staff are navigating. It, if I say this word, is it going to be wrong? Many institutions, many DIB professionals, are and faculty, right? Are have. Having their curriculums, having their syllabus, having their things scrutinized around language and what words you can say, and we can get into the whole notion, well, you know, let’s not get all hung up in the words. Well, that’s true. And words matter. That word means something, right? And so having to again, navigate with without saying the thing, takes a whole lot of energy in different ways. And again, is Sam and Beck and I were talking about this. It’s not just those who have deib in their title, or did right, um, or taught the deib related courses, right? So that when we talk about academic freedom and the challenges around that, but it’s, it’s the people, right? And I say, just because you say there’s only two genders, don’t mean non binary. People left the world right, and they’re still in the room, right, and they’re still on the campus, and they’re still on the faculty and the staff. This is so you take your pronouns off of your emails, what? Just because that’s named doesn’t make people go away. And so how people are navigating in these spaces where they’re trying, there are attempts because of risk aversion and so on, to erase them is a part of that challenge, right? And so they’re being asked to navigate and manage in those spaces, sometimes with a level of consciousness from, you know, one ups and supervisors and institutional leadership, and sometimes not with no level of consciousness around what that actually means and what that actually takes to show up every day with the People.

Rev. Sam Offer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s hard to call a thing a thing, yeah, that’s right. You can’t say a thing that’s right, really is. It’s hard to do that,

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
yeah, yeah, yeah.

becky martinez
And I feel myself taking a bunch of deep breaths,

Keith Edwards
yeah, what’s with me is being reminded, as you’re talking about gender identity, Jamie, how I hear so many people say that trans people aren’t real and they’re to blame for all our problems. It’s a little hard thing to get around and right? We can’t We can’t talk about racism because it doesn’t exist, it’s done and it’s over, while still really talking about other forms of identity that people want to focus in on, anything more about DIB professionals and their Well being before we move on in the conversation.

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
Well, I guess the only thing that I would add is, you know, and so what are the spaces that are being created to have this conversation, right? So, can the DEI be professionals and those adjacent right, you know, have the retreat, or have the meeting, or are we not even able to come together to talk about what the struggle? Does it have to So is that institutionally supported and sanctioned? Yes, we are doing our own meetings after the meeting, meetings before the meeting. You know, figuring out where we going to go for happy hour and all those kinds of things. But how are our institutions showing up in the institution? Responsibility to recognize how this dynamic is impacting its employees and it’s students and it’s staff, right? And it’s faculty. So what are what are we doing intentionally to say we recognize this, we get this. We see this as a thing. We may not even know how to address or support all of it, but we know that it is taking psychological and emotional labor and physical labor to kind of try to stay in it. And so what’s our what’s our agency and our responsibility to move forward again? Part of the tension is so when we’ve got the the senior leader in student affairs, or dei or diversity and inclusion, who are the only people who are saying that, or the people who are have to be the first to say that, right? We again add additional labor to them, right? And then when those folks are navigating being the only people at the table, but those who are under. Them, expect them right to show up in a particular way. Then there is another dynamic that’s at play that is burning out and that is doing harm to those of us who have risen to positions of at seats at the table where we could represent. We could use our voice, but when our voices are the only ones that are being, being, raising the issues, and we’re having meetings after the meeting, with our with our colleagues who say, Well, that, you know, this makes really good sense. You know, I don’t know what we’re going to do, but at the meeting crickets. I’m by myself, right? I’m the only one who’s saying it, it becomes an extra tax.

becky martinez
So one of the things that I’ve seen some campuses do, or they’re talking more about our communities of care, right? And so how are they intentionally setting up communities of care, whether that and not calling it affinity groups, right? It’s like, how are we doing these communities of care beyond just kind of this surface level way of taking care of each other?

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, I think I mean the other. I mean in this again, as we’ve been reminded when we open this conversation, that this is what this conversation looks like today, but it’s the same conversation that’s been happening over the arc of time as it relates to, you know, how we consider the condition of people I I’d be remiss if I didn’t name, you know, there are collaborating partners to de IB, professionals and colleagues, and we have the opportunity to name the work the deib colleagues do is universal care work, right? And so, you know, I want to be very clear when I say that, to say that that dei by DIB colleagues are among the best generalists you can have around student care, support and dignity, dignity, so to not lift up that that generalist impact, particularly in the realm of student success, is a missed opportunity. Right when we have a breadth of points of view at the table, then we’re able to accomplish those institutional values and goals. So I think that there is an, you know, an opportunity for us to bring people in differently, right? And again, this is also not a unique reflection that I’m offering here, but this is the space to say, Okay, if we’re going to accomplish our shared goals around the student experience and student success, then we want our best generalists at the table so that we can be sure that we have encompassed the breadth of the students on our campus, or faculty and staff. So same ways in which we make those decisions, and how

becky martinez
are we creating the structure for those best Right? Like tools development, skills, like not just bringing them there, but bringing them in, keeping them there, developing them. You know, what often happens is we just bring them in, and that’s it. Yeah, right? And so, like, how do we do that differently? Yeah?

Keith Edwards
I think this is so helpful, because I hear you all providing us some really great framing and context. But also in these last couple of minutes, we’ve heard some really great language to use, like communities of care and focusing on student success. And what does well being for all look like that? I think can be really tools that we can use to be strategic about going through this. One of the challenges I think that, as I talk to higher ed leaders, is we talked before about focusing not on being right, but about being effective and being strategic. And I hear these leaders say, I’m worried about media scrutiny, donor scrutiny, federal government scrutiny. And you know, all of my emails being foyed and gone through for the magic words, right? And so wanting to be really thoughtful and really strategic and really careful. On the other end of things, they’re being told by their colleagues, and that report to them and students, you’re not doing enough, right? So if I do anything, it’s too much, and if I do something, it’s never going to be enough. And this real squeeze between these external constituents and some of the internal sometimes that staff and a lot of times that students. So I’d love to turn our attention to students. I think you’ve all mentioned seeing students. Sam was speaking to seeing the look on students faces and the yearning and the need they have for some of this, and having to be really thoughtful about how we do that. And I think a lot of this has been instigated as we look at the 60 year history, not by consultants like some of us, not by necessarily faculty and staff, always, but a lot of times it’s been by students. That’s right. So we have this need. We won’t settle for this. We demand this. We’re pushing for this. And so how do you suggest in this crossroad, with all this pushback and being squeezed on both ends, how. You suggest that institutions and institutional leaders listen to and respond to students who are making demands around some of these issues, because it seems more complex than ever.

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
Yeah, it is, and I’m here to say I was one of those students that has me in this space today, because I was one of them students that said, Oh, hell to the no, whoops, did I cuss? But I’m good, but, you know? And so as we look to look today in the tension, right? And so I think that part of what’s happening and that we have to pay attention, is not avoiding right and not running away from and not trying to silence again. That’s That’s part of the the the struggle with, I think, some of our DIB professionals by title, and those who you know have served you know, kind of that need and desire on our campuses is the tension around, how do I continue to support the students and the concerns so we’ve got, we are just starting our academic year, 2526 and a lot happened over the summer and did that. So we had this frenzy of things that are happening. Some things got names. Of events got shifted, the Umoja, the graduation ceremony, the black student graduates, the Latinx student graduation, the pride graduation, the names got changed, and everything. We got to the end of the semester, and now we’re coming back, and I think that what’s happening, what’s going to happen, and what we have to pay attention to is students coming back to their offices being gone, right? Or their offices being renamed, and not knowing what Where is so and so, people being positioned, yeah? People, yeah, all of those things, and this whole notion of, do we not matter here? Is this place not still ours? And I think that we have to be willing to be in the conversation and the tension, yeah, right. We have to welcome that. We have to invite space for that so that students can know that we as an institution are committed to these things. We are struggling to figure out how we do that and this right. We welcome your wisdom and your brilliance as we figure this out in this space, because it’s not a space that we absolutely have an easy answer, and we don’t. We are navigating with, this is what we’re managing, right? This is what we’re managing, and we’re also so when we’ve got competing values, right, that that are at play, how do we kind of move through that together, but also pay attention to how. What can we do? How can we support how can we continue to show up? What are the things that we do need? I think Sam was saying something about our Becky name, naming your needs, and how do we do that in this climate where things are tenuous and stressful and we, you know, one of the things that I saw early on was when some of the early institutions were being hit with, you know, losing funding, and all the things that lots of us were doing, the oh my gosh, Isn’t that awful? Let me send a note to the people that I know there and let them know we’re thinking about them, right? Well, that’s a thing. How about us doing some coalition? How about us not showing up? Here is this? Is us? What? What are the institutional leaders in your area doing? What are the folks who are not necessarily on the campus, but adjacent the community, collaborators that are committed to these things doing. And so how do we make sure that our students are connected in those ways as well, as you know? So the students down here at this HBCU are connected to the students at the community college and the students, this is a moment of opportunity for us not to go it alone, right, for us to realize that we are we are stronger together, and that’s how we get to support our students in this way.

Rev. Sam Offer
Yeah, that’s as we model that the students see it That’s right, right? And then they start to take on they see us modeling, right? And so it’s so important that we are modeling this, this collaboration in this way, having these conversations. And the other thing for me too, Becky. Name the community of care. And the other thing I want to offer us too is that some of these conversations we just have to have one on one. It is a little more work. It is a little more work with our students to hear them and and to give them space where they feel comfortable, to say what they are holding in their body, in their energy, in their mind, right? And so some of that might require a one on one, right, and a community of care and and that we’re doing some of this with ourselves, because, you know, it starts with ourselves, first, if we’re not having these conversations, then we’re not building the capacity to engage our students as well.

becky martinez
Yeah. And how are we like role model, role modeling, vulnerability. Yeah, right. I think you know, as we are listening to student demands, as we’re responding, how are we also being formed with students, about what’s going on with us, right, about the impact? Because many times it’s it can be one way and like, how do we show up as vulnerable leaders? I think that that’s really important. It doesn’t mean that we gotta, like, it’s not a therapy session to work our stuff. Yeah, right. But like, it is a space to show that we’re human and like, we can be vulnerable in this moment. And I think then we can look at the like, how are we responding and listening to demands it is. How are like, how are we communicating with students? Are being transparent with students? We know that information continues to change, and so in this space of taking care of students or student demands like, we need to be able to supply them with the information that we we have,

Mamta Accapadi
yeah, and please. Well, I was going to say, you know, I’m hearing again, a lot of what, what y’all are talking about. And this work is not, it’s not efficient work, and in our in our professions and lots of industries, right? This efficiencies, efficiencies, right? Sam, the one on one conversation is not efficient. Communities of care, it’s not efficient. Being in the messy is not efficient. And I think there is a return of a practice that’s not going to be grounded in perfection. And again, I call it the like programs with great outcomes, right? Like it’s the work is just going to have to look a lot more organic. And I guess what I’m hearing you all describe

Keith Edwards
just be more real, right? This is fantastic, and we are running out of time, so this podcast is called Student Affairs. Now we always like to end by asking, What are you thinking? Troubling or pondering now, so we’d love to hear that from from each of you. And also, I know you wanted to share some about how we can live our values. I also know that folks are going to be really interested in how they might be able to work with you as leaders and institutions. And so if you can also share where they can reach out to you, that would be great. So a good podcast host rule is, don’t ask more than one question at once, and I just asked three over to you.

becky martinez
Becky, Okay, which one do I need to answer first? So Becky Martinez, infinity. Martinez.com, is where you can find me. Dr. Becky Martinez on blue sky and on Instagram and then LinkedIn the as we leave you. I just want folks to think about, what is the commitment to consistent learning, right? And so how am I learning in all different ways? What am I reading? What am I watching, what I’m having conversations in? And how do we not bombard ourselves with all of the intake, but create boundaries in the learning space. And as Jamie said, like, Let’s build coalitions. Like this is the opportunity for us to be in this together and not be siloed, and to reach out. And so coalition building is going to be really important for us to get through this moment and all of the other ones to follow. Great.

Keith Edwards
You did it. You did it. Sam, over to you. What are you thinking, troubling or pondering? Now? Where can folks connect with you, and how can we live our values?

Rev. Sam Offer
Yes. So again, Sam offer and I can be emailed at sam.offer@comcast.net you can find me on Instagram, at Sam Ray and Sam offer at on Facebook, and I first, I just want to appreciate this conversation. It’s been just absolutely amazing. And thank you all for having us here. And I just want to leave this we talked already about protecting and uplifting the EIB practitioners, both those who are titled and those who are just doing the work because they feel like that’s what they’ve been called to do, right? And so I want to leave us that we have. To advocate for their compensation, prioritize their wellness and build a culture. And Jamie talked about this, building a culture of shared responsibility. And if I was going to put that simple, I would say we just need to affirm that their work is not a side task, but a core organizational function. Is a it is to create systems of accountability where their insights and values are noticed, seen, respected, their labor is sustainable and their leadership is empowered to guide meaningful, lasting change. Mm, hmm,

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
well, I’ll jump in here, because Becky and Sammy really, really said it for me again. So you can reach me at Doctor Jamie washington@comcast.net or the Washington consulting group.net if you are looking for us via the web, you can also reach us@sjti.org and as we talk about care for all of those SJT alums out there. We’ve got a renewal coming up. We want you to join us for the renewal in Santa Fe in February, and our next Institute, that’s the which is a space again, for renewal and strength. The next Institute is in will be in June, likely in Baltimore, but stay tuned for that information that will be coming out soon. I just want to again appreciate the energy, the work, what’s happening right now, reminding us again of the great work that’s being done, that has been done, and to understand that this is a part of the culture change process. And so while we might feel like we are moving backwards, in some ways, it is important for us to to know that in order to move continue this train, moving in the way of all of us mattering and valuing, we have to navigate some of the tension that we’re in right now. So I would say to you, use your voice, right? So pay attention to your own agency and when you’re simply using your voice, and be aware of when you lose it, right? So when have I left a meeting or a situation where I wanted to say something, but I remained silent. I invite you to pay attention to that space, not from a place of judgment, but from a place to do your work, and finally, that you ground this in simply telling the truth and from a place of love, I’m going to use the L word yes love. There is a love of humanity that is grounding our work, and that is grounding while we’re in this space, doing this and and it is for all of us, and unapologetically, we believe that all of us matter, and we want to create a world where that’s the lived reality.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Mamta, you want to get in on this goodness too

Mamta Accapadi
well, I think it’s just really meaningful. Want to add gratitude for Becky, Jamie and Sam, your wisdom, just it was exactly what I know I needed today. So I’m grateful for how our colleagues experience this podcast. I know that it will be a gift for them as well. You all have kind of sparked thinking for me about what you know if, if we were doing this differently, not like let me tweak something, but if I’m radically doing this differently, what would a what would it look like if we held on to each other to create a culture of affection, right? That’s something 100% of people can agree upon. So Jamie, I your words about holding on to love really impacted me in a positive way. Yeah, holding on to each other. So I think our work right now is not about being right. It’s about holding on to each other. And if, in order to do that, then we have to shift our energy to what it means to hold on to each other. And I also argue, let go. If there’s spaces where, where it’s causing harm, yeah,

Rev. Jamie Washington M.Div
yeah, yeah,

Keith Edwards
beautiful, beautiful. I’ll just, I would add a ditto to a lot of that mom to I’ll also just add, I’m really leaving this conversation feeling inspired, motivated. I think the context and the framing has been really inspiring for me and also empowered. I feel like I’m leaving here with a lot of language, a lot of tools, a lot of skills to go forward and do do good work in the world. And so I really appreciated that, as mom just said I needed this too. So thank you all very much. I really appreciate that. I. You’ve all been fantastic, and the conversation has been terrific, and we hope this serves our listeners. And I want to thank all three of you and four of you for your leadership in the space I have learned from each and every one of you, and welcomed this opportunity today to continue to learn from you. So thank you all so very much. I also want to thank our sponsors of today’s episode evolve in Huron, higher ed leaders, as we’ve talked about, are facing unprecedented challenges, uncertainty and attacks. Many are understandably feeling overwhelmed and near burnout, yet yearning to make a powerful difference for students, organizations and all of us evolve. Is a program I lead along with my colleagues, doctors Brian rau and Don Lee, who I’m sure will be listening to this. It’s an executive coaching program to empower leaders like you to release fear, gain courage and take transformative action, to unleash your leadership for social change. So three months, three month coaching program for individual and group coaching, as well as intentional and curated curriculum to maximize the impact. For the busiest of senior leaders, you can visit us, or join our next cohort, or consider evolve for your senior leadership team and Huron. Huron collaborates with colleges and universities to create sound strategies, optimize operations and accelerate digital transformation by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo. Huron promotes institutional resilience and higher education. For more information, visit them at go.hcg.com/now as always, a huge shout out to our producer, Natalie Ambrosey, who does all the behind the scenes work to make all of us look and sound good. And we love the support of you our audience for these important conversations, you can really help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast on YouTube or to our weekly newsletter, where you get the newest episode every Wednesday morning, and if you want to leave us a five star review in various places, it really helps and also share these episodes. The each share helps this reach even more folks, which is really, really helpful. Thanks again to our fabulous guest today, and my co host, Mamta Accapadi, thank you all for being here and to our listeners. All you watching and listening. Make it a great week. Thank you all.

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