Heather Shea: I totally agree with you, Keith. I think the challenge is about the volume of different things that are facing us. And as a I oversee a team of folks who I’d say the one thing that we have discussed quite a bit is how do you know what to focus on first? What matters the most? Where can you have the biggest impact? And also knowing that might shift from day to day. And so it moves less from like we’re gonna control all of these variables to we’re gonna try to coordinate our response in a more strategic and cohesive way by forming partnerships, right? And this is the whole web network model, I think, of leadership, is that it… No one person can do it all. We have to create systems and supports to create those networks and then that will ultimately, I think, address some of the concerns about burnout and capacity. But I think we live and exist in a field that is really individually driven, right?

Keith Edwards: Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’m usually one of your hosts, Keith Edwards. Today, I get to be one of the guests. Higher education leaders today aren’t facing one unprecedented challenge. They’re facing all of them simultaneously. In this conversation, the tables got flipped and fellow co-host Heather Shea and I were invited to join TACUSPA’s Dr.

Anthony Edwards to explore what it actually takes to lead well in a moment defined by volatility, external scrutiny, shifting technology, and institutional inertia. From the importance of inner work and learning agility to the promise of curricular approaches and the peril of reactive AI adoption, Heather and I offer grounded, honest perspectives from our combined decades in the field and many conversations here on Student Affairs NOW.

So whether you’re navigating your first ninety days in a new role or trying to lead a division through sustained uncertainty, this conversation is for leaders who want to be the calm at the center of the storm rather than just another casualty of it. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in, alongside, or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs.

We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Thanks to our partnership with TACUSPA, this episode is also sponsored by Evolve. Evolve offers four leadership coaching journeys designed to expand capacity and build capabilities, empowering courageous leadership to transform institutions and reimagine the future of higher education.

And with that, let’s turn it over to our TACUSPA hosts, Dr. Hilda Billups and Dr. Anthony Edwards.

Hilda Billups: Greetings. Thank you for viewing this webinar. My name is Dr. Hilda Billups and I currently serve as the director of webinars for TCUSPA, the Texas Association of College and University Student Personnel Administrators. You will notice we’ve changed the format for this webinar just a bit. TCUSPA is pleased to welcome Dr.

Keith Edwards and Dr. Heather Shea, co-hosts of Student Affairs NOW, to a conversation about leading in challenging times. Allow me to introduce our facilitator for today’s webinar. Dr. Anthony Edwards supports TCUSPA as a director of research and is a member of the webinars committee. Anthony serves as an assistant professor in the Department of Educational Leadership and Technology at Tarleton State University.

Anthony’s teaching assignments include higher education leadership, higher education student services, higher education finance, higher education policy and politics, higher education history, and the comprehensive community college. Dr. Edwards previously served as director of Tarleton Online at Tarleton State University, a professor of biology at Panola College, senior vice president of talent at the Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce, and science department chair at Granbury High School.

Dr. Edwards also served as a secondary science teacher in Fort Worth ISD and Huckabee ISD. Anthony’s research agenda focuses on organizational change in higher education with respect to strategic planning, STEM education, higher education marketing, academic advising, and educational technology. Anthony has published manuscripts in the Journal of Higher Education Management and the HAPS Educator.

In addition to chairing dissertation committees, Dr. Edwards supports student success as coordinator of the higher education leadership concentration of the Master of Education program in educational administration. We’re very excited to have Dr. Edwards serve as our facilitator for this webinar, and are thankful to Dr.

Shea and Dr. Edwards for their willingness to share. I will now turn our webinar over to Dr. Edwards.

Anthony Edwards: Thank you, Dr. Billups. So Dr. Keith Edwards believes that higher education leaders become the calm eye at the center of the storm so that they can lead with and through it. Through Evolve, Keith partners with assistant vice presidents, deans, directors, and vice presidents on leadership coaching journeys that build the internal and structural capacity to lead through the uncertainty, not just survive it.

Through the curricular approach, Keith helps institutions bring intentionality, alignment, integration, and clarity to learning beyond the classroom, turning disconnected programs into coherent educational systems. Keith has consulted with more than 400 organizations, logged more than 1,500 hours as a certified leadership and executive coach, and published more than 25 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters.

Keith co-authored The Curricular Approach to Student Affairs, and co-hosts Student Affairs NOW, premier podcasts in the field. Those who have worked with Keith describe him as an unconventional scholar, trusted leader, and authentic educator. Also, Dr. Heather Shea works as the director of Pathways Persistence Programs in the Undergraduate Student Success in the Office of the Provost at Michigan State University.

Her career in student affairs spans over two decades and five different campuses. It also involves experiences in many different functional areas, including residence life, student activities, commuter and non-traditional student services, and leadership development. Heather also identifies as a generalist in student affairs.

Heather’s committed to scholarship and pr- preparing the next generation of higher education leaders. She regularly teaches undergraduate and graduate level classes each summer, which … And she leads a six-credit undergraduate education abroad program in Europe for students in teacher education Heather served as president of ACPA College Student Educators International from 2023 to 2024, and she was honored as a Diamond Honoree by the ACPA Foundation.

And she’s also completed her PhD at Michigan State University in Higher, Adult and Lifelong Education. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Edwards and Dr. Shay.

Heather Shea: Thank you for having us.

Keith Edwards: Yeah, we’re gonna have a Dr. Edwards off here,

Anthony Edwards: ah, yes, the council of Dr. Edwards here. Yeah. Okay.

Hilda Billups: I love it.

Anthony Edwards: Now we’ll start with our questions.

Our first question is for Heather. You talked about some of, or I’ve t- well, I talked about some of the things that you’ve done, but I’d like to know a little bit more about your professional journey and kinda how you got here and some of your previous roles.

Heather Shea: Yeah. In your, in the bio that you read, it says that I have been on five different campuses.

I, I will also say that three of those campuses were in the West. I identify strongly as being from the West. I grew up in Colorado, went to Colorado State, then was at the University of Arizona and Idaho before coming here. And I think my journey I used to think of myself as a generalist, and then I spent over 10 years working in women and gender centers.

And so while I’m not currently doing that work, I think I’ve returned back to more of a holistic perspective. I think in general my work has always been around making sure that not only do students have access to college and have great programming while they’re there, but that they thrive and ultimately graduate.

And my current role in undergraduate education is really based around working closely with first-gen students and really thinking about not only access, but also belonging, mattering, and then how that coincides with student success. And yes, I have the opportunity every summer to lead an undergraduate study abroad program.

We are on the countdown. I leave on May 1st. And Keith and I will figure out how we’re gonna do the podcast while we’re gone. Actually it’ll all be it’ll all be great. But it’s a fabulous additional role that I get to play, and I’m excited every year. This year I have 20 students that are going with me to four countries in Europe over three weeks.

Anthony Edwards: Wow. That’s interesting connection between academic and student affairs and how you make that work which is I think very powerful.

Hilda Billups: Yeah.

Anthony Edwards: All right. So Keith, yeah, I think in your role you work with a lot of student affairs leaders around the country. What are some of the challenges student affairs leaders are facing right now, and how do you recommend they overcome them?

Keith Edwards: Maybe the real question is which challenges aren’t they facing? Yeah. Heather and I were just both at ACPA, and I got to lead several sessions while I was there, and we hosted some socials and some events and things like that with the podcast, and as you mentioned, talking about curricular approaches at, in Evolve.

So I got to talk with people, I got to listen to people, and as the, I was listening, I was just hearing just all the pressure that student affairs leaders are under at all levels. And, I think folks like Vernon Wall remind us that the sort of scrutiny that we’re under- … and the attacks on certain aspects of our work are not new.

Those have happened before which I think is a wonderful reminder to those of us- … who don’t have that much history. I think what is really new though, is all of these happening at the same time, right? From state and federal executive orders to scrutiny for media organizations, to shifts in AI and technology, to an enrollment cliff.

To changing workforce in higher ed, to still recovering- … from COVID and work from home, and how do we navigate all of that? One of the things that I noticed while I was at ACPA is I didn’t hear people talk about budget cuts.

Hilda Billups: I didn’t

Keith Edwards: hear them talk about student mental health. I didn’t hear them talk about the enrollment cliff.

I didn’t hear them talk about graduation rates. Because those are… It’s not that those aren’t issues, they’re just they’re the wallpaper. They’re the of course. And I think and your other part of the question is how do we overcome it? I think Heather and I were in grad school together many years ago.

We’ll just leave it at that. And we learned a lot of really great things, and almost none of it will serve us today.

Hilda Billups: Correct.

Keith Edwards: Almost none of it will serve us today. And if you have a master’s degree in student affairs or higher education or something else, or social work, or you have a PhD, I don’t know how much of what you’ve learned in those programs is gonna help you navigate, say, AI, and how you’re gonna integrate it into your leadership and practice.

Or how your institution should level it. I don’t know how you use that. I don’t know what you learn to navigate the complexities of the external scrutiny that we’re under. And so I think we have to turn to not what we know-

…

Keith Edwards: But the skills and capacities we have to learn to be adaptable, to be nimble, to listen with empathy in difficult moments, to be strategic, to be thoughtful.

And that’s really hard to do when you’re super busy and overwhelmed and reactive and dealing with the crisis of the moment. I think one of the things I notice is that people are moving so quickly right now, so fast- That their institutions are moving slowly because they’re not- … thoughtful and planful.

They don’t have space to think and navigate. So institutions are moving incredibly slowly. A lot of that is by design, some of that is by lack of capacity, while individual leaders are just barely keeping up.

And those things are related. Because individual leaders can barely keep up, they’re not able to lead their institutions to be nimble, to be flexible, to be innovative, to creative, to be transformational.

So in the bio you read, how do we be the calm center at the s- at the center of the storm- … so we can lead with and through it? ‘Cause there’s a lot of energy in the storm, right? Yeah. For change and transformation as well. But we’re just not capitalizing on it ’cause we don’t have the capacity to do

Heather Shea: yeah. I’ll add one thing because I totally agree with you, Keith. I think the challenge is about the volume of different things that are facing us. And as a I oversee a team of folks who I’d say the one thing that we have discussed quite a bit is how do you know what to focus on first?

What matters the most? Where can you have the biggest impact? And also knowing that might shift from day to day. And so it moves less from like we’re gonna control all of these variables to we’re gonna try to coordinate our response in a more strategic and cohesive way by forming partnerships, right?

And this is the whole web network model, I think, of leadership, is that it… No one person can do it all. We have to create systems and supports to create those networks and then that will ultimately, I think, address some of the concerns about burnout and capacity. But I think we live and exist in a field that is really individually driven, right?

Individual leaders taking on too much. So yeah, there’s so many challenges.

Anthony Edwards: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And in thinking about what both of you are saying obviously higher ed is in a period of change, right? I go back to, I was a biology teacher, and we talked about- gradualism, where there’s periods where there’s not much change, and then periods where there’s a whole lot of change. And I feel like we’re in one of those periods where there’s a lot of change. And I think f- now that I’m on the academic side, I think what I’m trying to do is teach my students frameworks for thinking about how to solve complex problems.

Because, the topics of the day obviously are gonna change. But I do think, whether it’s leadership frameworks or, communication or, some of these other, kind of types of frameworks, I think is important, just as a broad, mindset or policy or, any of these things.

‘Cause, laws will change, but some of the processes don’t always change as, as quickly as the laws change. And so I think it’s important as from someone who at least from TACUPSA standpoint, I think about, okay, how do we integrate research? How do we integrate theory?

How do we do those things? As folks who, have gone through those master’s and doctoral level experiences. Both of you have done, examples of scholarship. How are you integrating, at least maybe from a broad standpoint, the things that you the process of being a thinker and tinkerer- Wow

To the work that you do?

Heather Shea: Keith, you wanna start off on that? I have lots

Keith Edwards: of- Yeah I think if I were to be really hard on higher education, I would say the world around higher education institutions- … is changing dramatically.

Anthony Edwards: Correct.

Keith Edwards: And we’re not.

Anthony Edwards: Correct.

Keith Edwards: We’re not changing. We are not adapting.

As I mentioned, some of that’s capacity, but some of it is institutions are designed to be slow to change on purpose. So we’re not going with the fad of the moment. But we’re not facing the fad of the moment. We’re talking about dramatic changes. We talk about this VUCA world that’s volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous.

And people either argue it shouldn’t be this way. These things shouldn’t be happening, which is an argument with reality. Or they wanna wait it out. They wanna wait for the storm to pass. And I don’t think … That VUCA is just gonna get more and more complex. As we used to talk about changes in AI year to year.

Now we’re talking about- … changes in AI week to week.

Anthony Edwards: Correct.

Keith Edwards: Dramatic changes. Legislation changing, the world around us, students changing. I used to say, I went to college 25, 30 years ago, and my mental model is outdated. I think now if you went to college four years ago, your mental model is outdated.

Yeah. About how people navigate it, how social media, how their phones, how they’re using AI. You don’t even know. But I think you’re right. I think frameworks can be helpful. I think knowledge is less precious than it ever was. But I think skills and capacity, so a, not much that I read or learned in my doctoral program- Yeah.

which was a fabulous program, I’m not criticizing it in any way- … is still relevant. But the ability to learn that I learned- yeah … serves me 12 times a day. The ability to scan what is nonsense, what is helpful, what is the signal within the noise. That skill that I really honed in that process of my doctoral program, just incredibly useful as we go.

So I, I’m talking about with senior leaders, you developed a, you spent a career developing an expertise-

Hilda Billups: Yep …

Keith Edwards: that will no longer serve you in this role. You developed years of developing capacities and successful that got you a promotion, and now that capacity, you don’t even do that anymore.

And then I think the other thing is that higher education’s whole focus is learning and growth and development, and we don’t take that approach with higher education leaders. We have a very fixed mindset. We hire- … we promote someone within to be our hero. We hire someone from external to be our savior, and then we sit back and watch and see if the search was done right or not.

Hilda Billups: If

Keith Edwards: not, we get rid of them. We do another- … expensive search. Or worse yet, we don’t. We keep them-

Heather Shea: Yeah …

Keith Edwards: as an ineffective leader.

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Hilda Billups: How do

Keith Edwards: we l- teach these leaders to be successful? How do we help them grow? How do we help them learn? How do we mentor them? How do we support them? How do we develop their capacities?

We have tons of smart, talented, capable people on these campuses, and we’re not nurturing them into the leaders that they could be.

Heather Shea: You went in a different direction than- Yeah, ac- go ahead … you went slightly a different direction than I was gonna take that question, Keith, but I agree with you that we hold people to the standard that is really unreachable.

The other thing I was gonna mention, though, is that I think on the Student Affairs NOW podcast, and particularly with some of the different offshoot formats, like Current Campus Context, we’re really trying to help leaders discern quickly what is the signal within the noise, and how do the actions that you take tomorrow potentially respond to that in, in a meaningful way.

The five correspondents who are staying continuously attuned to what’s bubbling up have taught me so much about n- tracking and then also distilling that in a way that makes for student affairs folks, for folks who are in higher ed, for parents of students what are the things that I really need to be worried about or take action on my campus?

And so building that offshoot podcast, Current Campus Context, of the Student Affairs NOW channel has been hopefully one of the things that both keeps our learner moving, but also brings some really practical, applicable skills to folks who might be overwhelmed and just opening up the news apps, right?

As I am often, so

Anthony Edwards: Yeah. So Heather, in, in your world right now- … what’s your scope of responsibilities? So what are some of the areas that you manage? And- … I know you talked about how you help your team, but how do you keep yourself sane managing these different pieces?

Heather Shea: Yeah.

Yeah. So the Pathways Persistence Programs is a kind of what we’re call a group of academic cohort programs on campus. Michigan State is a massive institution, 55,000 students. And on most big campuses, we talk about how to make the campus feel smaller, and we know when students are connected to smaller communities they’re more academically successful.

They, again, their presence matters and they can find those peer connections with mentors and others. So the four, the five Pathways programs, TRIO Student Support Services is probably the one most people are familiar with because it’s a national, federally funded program. So we have that program within the Pathways program.

And then all of the other ones are similar in some ways but focus on bringing students with similar characteristics or backgrounds or even academic areas of interest together into these smaller cohort communities. I have a team of about 12 full-time staff folks. And I have learned within this space, which is definitely it right squarely in academic affairs, that we are all doing student affairs work.

I think that dichotomy between that there’s this line between academic and student affairs work has really been blurred when we start talking about student success because those are the, they’re everybody’s students. And campuses and students don’t necessarily see the differentiation.

On some campuses, the programs I work with could be in student affairs. Our work though is really grounded around kind of five opportunity areas of student success which all lead towards Michigan State University’s general goal to close opportunity gaps and decrease time to degree.

And I think as we build these strong individual programs, I’m really interested in how we can scale those to reach a broader audience and maybe even replicate the models so that there’s a true ecosystem of student support this whole idea is actually grounded in a institutional deficit philosophy.

People may hear that and go, “I… What do you mean exactly?” I think many campuses have done the look to the left, look to the right, one of you won’t be here anymore. And they put that on students to be in charge of their own success. Our vice provost in our campus broadly has really adopted this notion that if students are going to be admitted to Michigan State, it’s our responsibility in partnership with the student to ensure that they can be successful and ultimately learn, thrive and graduate.

So the institutional deficit model is like we need to actually adjust the institution to meet students who are coming through our gates. The work is really around this idea that an ecosessum- an ecosystem of student support is really gonna build those communities where people find and stay and conne- and connect with one another.

The other thing I will also say, and I don’t know if I could talk about my role in higher ed without also talking about my role as a parent I have a daughter who’s a junior in college not here at Michigan State. But my son is a senior in high school, and he just recently declared that he and c- is committed to Michigan State.

He declared this on Instagram, of course, and I had to find it there and had some words about w- It’s interesting that I was scrolling Instagram, and I discovered that you’ve actually made your final decision. But as a parent, watching him navigate that college choice process and then also visiting other campuses and really asking questions about how they define student success.

How do students who are participants in specific programs do compared to those who don’t have access to those resources? I’m sure I’m the f- I’m the parent in the back of the room that every campus tour leader is like, “Oh, no. She’s like having studied this and now also working in an institution that’s taking this really seriously.”

But as a parent of a, of now almost two college students, I’m really curious and anxious about higher education’s future, so

Anthony Edwards: Very interesting. And I think I’ll segue to a question Keith talked a little bit about AI, and I’m gonna ask him to talk a little more about that in a minute. But as a parent, we’re hearing all these things about how is AI going to impact our, students who are going into college or graduating and, I think I’m just curious from your perspective both as a parent- and as someone who works at a university, w- you know, h- how does that maybe impact at all the way you support, A your own children, but maybe even your students that you serve?

Heather Shea: Yeah, this has been a huge topic of conversation on our campus as I know it has been on many others.

And it’s interesting. I just read a blog post by Keith the other day that was talking about the never evers versus the what’s the other end? All in. All in, yeah. All in and never evers. And I would say that on our campus at least, we are definitely taking seriously the notion that if students AI is probably not going to replace the job, but students who know how to effectively use artificial intelligence will be hired more often than students who don’t.

And in talking with employers, we have a huge job readiness component to our institution’s priorities. There is a lot of push and pressure, I think, on institutions to bring students up to speed around effective use of AI and ethical use of AI. I think the other piece for it for students is understanding where that boundary is and having conversations where and when AI use might be appropriate.

I mentioned my study abroad. The study abroad is called Learning Culture and Technology in Europe LCTE, and the technology piece we take very seriously. My co-instructor and I integrate AI and all other form- any other forms of technology into our program. I don’t have to get into all the specifics, but we encourage it.

We encourage it because we want to have conversations about how to use it effectively, and how can this be a life skill also? On Keith’s continuum I would probably be on the all-in end of this. But I recognize the complicated discussion, but every time a new technology has been introduced into the higher ed ecosystem, we have, the sky is falling.

Oh, no, what does it mean that we’re replacing our campus mail system with email, right? Honestly we need to be better at learning, embracing, adopting and then talking ethically about how we utilize those those skills. So that’s my perspective on AI. And it’s interesting because this is probably the biggest debate that is going on in, in my circles, both on my campus as well as in my own household.

Anthony Edwards: All right. Thank you for that. Patty, what else do you think? Yeah. Keith, what about you? I know you’re, again, surveying lots of student affairs leaders. Where are you seeing maybe opportunities? Where are you seeing apprehensiveness? Yeah.

Keith Edwards: I’ll just say, and Heather alluded to it, but I’ll say briefly the th- the thing that I see is we’re being reactionary about AI.

And we’re not being thoughtful about it. I had a talk with a faculty member who taught a ethical AI course, and he said, “I got people coming in who are all in, I use it for everything. It’s the best thing that’s ever happened.” And people who said, “I will never. It’s unethical. It’s unsustainable.

It’s gonna end society.” And when those people came together and spent a semester really thinking about it and really exploring it, everyone came to the middle. The all-in folks were I shouldn’t use it for everything. There are some downsides. I should be thoughtful and careful.”

And the never will I ever were like I can be thoughtful and I can be careful.” And so I think that’s th- that’s the thing that I’m seeing. I’m also seeing this with institutions. Institutions are… I just, I talked with a vice president who said there was a cabinet m- meeting where the president declared that we will be an AI institution.

And his vice president said, “What does that mean?” And they said, “We’ll figure it out later.” So they’re being reactionary. They wanna get on the bandwagon. They wanna advance this. They wanna create an AI institution. They wanna put it on their website. They wanna put it on letterhead. They wanna talk about it, and they haven’t thought about what that means, what’s that gonna be.

And so I think we need to move away from being reactionary and to be thoughtful about our response as individuals, as leaders, as institutions. And that’s really, as we said earlier, it’s really hard to do when you’re also getting all the pressures from all the places and all the things, and overwhelmed, and you have staff attrition and disengagement, and you’re trying to navigate all of that.

It’s just another really hard thing to navigate.

Anthony Edwards: And for those that are a little maybe nervous- As leaders, how might they take some, steps to get their feet in the water and also model behavior for their teams?

Keith Edwards: I think just be thoughtful. I think it’s also changing so rapidly.

Yeah. So I was talking with one leader who said, every query is seven trees.” And I was like I don’t think that’s true.” And if it was true, it’s no longer true as these technologies get faster, more efficient, and more important. And so there’s a lot of things. Also, if you tried AI a year ago- Yeah

it’s completely different now. And so I think even if you are really thoughtful about it and really don’t feel like this is something that is for you at all, I to- I get that. I understand that. I, that, that’s a reasonable perspective. I still think you need to know and be informed about it. And so I think there’s lots of ways to do that.

There’s no shortage of experts. But I would say that if you’re gonna wanna learn about AI, you gotta really pay attention to things that have come out in the past month. Yep. Or the past week would be better because it is- Yeah … it is so dynamically… today as we’re recording this, Anthropic came out with a brand-new model last night-

Hilda Billups: Yep

that

Keith Edwards: they’re not releasing because it’s too dangerous. Oh. It could really undo a lot of things. So they’re not even releasing their brand-new most effective model. They’re only gonna work with particular large corporations for coding because it could hack into all the systems. So that’s today. Who knows what next week will bring?

But we really gotta be up to speed on things.

Heather Shea: I’ll add also I think that there’s a lot of pressure to know everything about it, and I don’t know that you need to know everything in order to experiment and be curious. And I think if we can create spaces for learning where new adopters or early adopters are engaging with folks and talking about it.

The other piece that I think is really relevant for student affairs is that it streamlines an incredible some of the most monotonous maybe exhausting, time-consuming aspects of our work. And so just even providing some use cases for folks. Our undergrad ed team has a monthly professional development series, and there was one on AI use as a thought partner.

And it is a really, I think it’s an interesting way to think of a, not a person obviously, but what would you give to an intern that you might want them to experiment with or learn about and then come back to you and share what they found, right? If you think of it that way, y- of course you’re gonna check their work, and of course you’re going to engage with them in a conversation to fine-tune it and maybe make it better.

But having that as a thought partner as you’re working through challenging situations, again ethically and I think that’s the key is that we need to make sure that we’re normalizing that. We’re also not using AI to replace the human interactions. I just gave an example that replaced a human interaction with this AI intern role.

But the r- the reality is that if we can learn from one another about systems and ways to align usage with our values and mission and if we can lead if folks who are in higher ed leadership roles can lead with that area of curiosity, I think the larger field will be better served

Anthony Edwards: That makes a lot of sense.

So Keith, you’ve written this whole book on this topic called The Curricular Approach. So can you tell me a little bit more about that and how it can help student affairs leaders thrive in challenging times?

Keith Edwards: Yeah. I think I think the curricular approach is a tonic for our times with all the things coming at us, helps us be intentional, clear, aligned, and integrated.

I remember sitting in so many directors meetings where we were all sitting around a conference room table much like the one behind Dr. Edwards. And it was like every director had an oar, and we were paddling in this boat, but because we were all working so hard but not in a unified direction, the boat didn’t go anywhere, just sadly tw- twirled around.

Versus if we can really be intentional, clear, aligned, and integrated, then you’re one of those crew boats that just flies with everybody- … doing a different thing and but with a shared sense of purpose. And I think that’s one way to think about the curricular approach.

There’s also a lot of results that we see, a lot of schools that move to a curricular approach, increased retention, better use of resources, better staff engagement, reduced conduct, more proactive on student mental health issues. So many benefits as we go, and I work with a lot of campuses to figure out what they want their students to learn and then align what they’re doing day to day by each functional area with that.

The curricular approach, the analogy is, what would be the major for learning beyond the classroom? Would it be leadership? Would it be global citizenship? Would it be something else? And then once we’re very clear what that major is through goals and outcomes and rubrics and narratives and all sorts of things, then how do we organize orientation to contribute to that, and res life and the career center and athletics and health promotion, so that we are all rowing in the same direction with very different ways and very different ways of engaging with students.

And when you can really leverage that we stop competing with each other for those ten percent of students who will show up to a bunch of stuff, and start organizing ourselves to say, “How can we collectively reach every one of our students about healthy conflict management, for instance, about self-awareness, about leadership, about community engagement?”

And so I work with a bunch of schools to launch that and then to do ongoing support for that. And it’s been, I was just with a group I guess it’s two weeks ago now that had launched less than a year ago, and the benefits they’re realizing about how we could get on the same page.

And I, as I was in the room they were sharing some of the benefits of their alignment and then saying, “We all send out a bunch of newsletters that nobody reads.” “What if we sent out one newsletter every two weeks?” That had all of that stuff that was really well done, that was really well thought out.

And I th- think that’s just a good example that students might ignore 12 newsletters from around campus in a week, but they might pay attention if they just got one every couple of weeks that was just the best of things. It helps us prioritize and be clear and not be competing with each other

Heather Shea: Can I say something to, to- Please

boost Keith’s credibility in this space? Because I think one he has been instrumental in the foundation of this n- of this model, but also stretching it and taking it further. Keith, I think you’ve been to Michigan State twice, specifically around our curricular approach. Our folks in housing have influenced now our larger campus undergraduate learning outcomes, and the development, I just sat on a committee, we’re working on developing a set of new undergraduate learning outcomes, are really looking at how do we blend the curricular approach from our housing area and our student affairs area with the academic- expectations that we have of students as well. And so our new set of learning outcomes were really informed by the previous work that Keith did with us seven years ago, and then again maybe f- three years ago to build- Couldn’t tell you. I know. It’s been a minute. But, Yeah

I think that’s the key. And it’s given us a common language to talk about- Yeah … the way that we want to align our work around this shared motivation and- Yeah … and shared coordinated movement.

Keith Edwards: That’s a great point. And I think curricular approaches started in housing and residence life.

Because that’s where those of us who were thinking about it were working. There’s no other reason. And then they started to become divisional, right? Entire divisions of student affairs having a shared curricular approach that they were working to. And now what we’re seeing is university-wide approaches- Yep

where it’s not just the division of student affairs, but it’s also athletics and marketing and advancement and academic affairs saying, “What do we want? What if we all came together around five goals- … and we promise that to every student? We organize the whole enterprise, not just student affairs-

Around that.” And we’re seeing that as a top-down approach where presidents are leading that and wanting the whole university to do that, and also bottom up, where it started in res life and it’s expanded, and now of student affairs. But also this unit and this unit, people are going why aren’t we all doing that?”

Yeah. And people are going, “That, that sounds great.” So there’s a top-down and a bottom-up from residential to student affairs to university-wide. So it’s an exciting time to be in that space and watching all the innovation that people are developing on their campuses for their students in their context.

Anthony Edwards: No, that, that makes a lot of sense. It’s, I think particularly in, in times where leaders have to justify budgets and figure out, “Okay why should we have money for this, that, or the other?” And I think being able to demonstrate clear, learning outcomes and achievement of those learning outcomes, I think can go a long way.

Particularly, thinking about VPs of student affairs who might be in a cabinet meeting with folks from academic affairs and finance and other places. I think being able to, I think sometimes it, it’s, it can almost seem like the folks in that room are all speaking a different language.

But the, what you’re describing to me sounds like more of a common language that works across the university. And so I, I think that sounds very powerful. Yeah.

Keith Edwards: Yeah, common language and then aligned and integrated implementation.

Let’s stop telling students to stop studying, stop going to the student org thing, stop going to their soccer practice, and come to our event at 7:00 in the lounge.

And instead think, where are students wrestling with this already? How do we deliver it- Yeah … wherever they are, in whatever mode that means? Which leads us to this magical real estate where things get easier for us as staff and more powerful for students. And- Yeah … to tap into that a little bit, you want to expand it quite a bit more.

Heather Shea: Yeah. One of my other positions at Michigan State was exploring the development and implementation of a co-curricular record project. And so the other benefit I think of this idea is that students are better equipped to tell the story of your institution and b- and better able to say, as a result of participating in those additional co-curricular experiences, what did I learn that actually contributed to my overall…

We our record is called the Spartan Experience Record. C- coupled with the transcript, it’s an important document for students to be able to talk about, “This is what I got out of my my time at my, at that institution.” And so I think the curricular approach and the outcomes and all of that work helps students tell that story really effectively.

Anthony Edwards: Yeah, it makes sense. So Heather, y- I’m sure you work with a combination of new and established leaders. For those that are new to their roles what is, what’s some advice that you give these new leaders in their, maybe their first 90 days?

Heather Shea: Yeah. Yeah, I actually am in the process of hiring two new program directors right now, so this is really a relevant question.

And I think, when I arrived into this role, again, it’s only been about a year and nine months I recognized that the most important role that I had as a new leader was to listen and to understand what some of the patterns were that organization or unit had maybe fallen into.

In some cases, those team dynamics are actually something that needs to be addressed right away, but not in a we’re gonna change it, but we’re gonna listen we’re gonna address the tensions we’re gonna clarify expectations. Looking for those patterns. And I think through that listening process and having one-on-one conversations, having group conversations you can really I think gain a lot during that first 90-day period.

I think the tendency is for new leaders to come and improve themselves early, and building really quickly this like I’m in charge kind of mentality. And I really hope that new leaders Come in with a little bit m- more humility and work to understand the environment and the culture before they try to change it.

And I think that means not only those who they’re directly working with, but also the supervisors and others who work within their kind of colleague group. And I will also say I think new leaders can do some level setting around normalizing boundaries, normalizing sustainable workplace environments normalize, the enthusiasm for coming to work.

I think COVID has cr- created all kinds of interesting work patterns for folks, and some folks, I think, arrived on campus post-COVID believing that they were they were owed remote days and they were owed h- more hybrid work environments. And my goal all along is y- we need to honor that because f- because staff, are tired and getting burned out.

But I also wanna make coming to work a joyful place, right? The work is hard, and if you can’t have a little bit of fun while doing it, And so encouraging leaders to be their authentic selves, but build that kind of capacity for the team to move forward. Yeah I feel like my role in my current office is really developing that community of support among the staff so that they can rely on each other and work together.

Because we have five different programs, they certainly all don’t need to be doing the exact same thing. We don’t need five FAFSA nights. We need one FAFSA night that all program participants can come to. And just something as simple as that was, like, completely a complete paradigm shift

Anthony Edwards: I remember Rebecca was listening and she was mentioning that, these silos are real ’cause sometimes we can just get caught up in not, not working together. But it’s important as leaders that we break through that. So Keith, if, as you’re thinking about skills that, student affairs leaders need in this current environment, if you were to say what were your top three, what would they be?

Keith Edwards: I think the ability to learn, to be curious, to explore, to sort through what’s nonsense and what’s not, and be helpful. Because I don’t know what challenges we’ll be focused on in six months, but it’ll be different than the ones we’re talking about today. So I think the ability to learn. I think just the human skills of empathy, connection, humor our ability to do that.

And then to do our inner work. I think inner work maybe sounds selfish or self-involved or self-indulgent until you see a senior leader who hasn’t done it-

Hilda Billups: Yep …

Keith Edwards: and the chaos around them and the fear as a result of that. So I think the more inner work that we can do so that we can be the calm eye at the center of the storm.

And I think student affairs folks have a huge advantage of that because much of our preparation programs and where we came and why we chose this, and all of those team builders, we’ve done some inner work along the way that frankly you don’t see often. Often you don’t see in provosts and senior financial off- financial officers and others.

But where can we do more of that inner work so that we can, I talk about the president who shows up to the town hall after the bias incident and can sit and have students lash out in their hurt and pain and anger, and say hurtful, deeply hurtful things, and probably some things that aren’t entirely true, and that leader still be able to be in empathy and compassion in spite of that, which is what’s needed, and that’s really hard to do.

It’s really hard to be blamed and attacked and in some ways unfairly, and maintain empathy and compassion and connection for students. And when leaders have done their self-work, they’re able to do that kind of thing. Or to be as we heard earlier at ACPA to be in the meeting where the provost says some really dumb stuff and keep your cool and not be reactive and not lash out, but to be thoughtful in your framing and how you’re addressing.

Not to ignore it or be passive, but how are you gonna address that in a way that’s… those are just two examples among many about the things. So I would say learning inner work, and then the second one, which I’ve already forgotten.

Anthony Edwards: That’s, that is quite all right. I think you’ve described some of the things that, I think student affairs leaders need. As we wrap up what are some books, podcasts, things that you think our listeners need to know? It’s okay to let us know if they’re ones that you were participating in, but things that you think they would find helpful

Heather Shea: We would be remiss if we did not mention our own podcast, Student Affairs NOW which you can find at studentaffairsnow.com.

W- we have been going for over five years at creating a weekly episode sometimes more than one episode a week, so we’re over 330 episodes, I think, at this point. We recently just launched a Patreon n- not really to create an extension of the learning community so that folks can engage with us.

Podcasts are a one-way communication, and we wanted an opportunity for folks to engage with each other. And so I love… I, I’m obviously very biased, but I love engaging with and participating in the creation of Student Affairs NOW. In terms of books, I have two that I constan- continually go back to.

One is Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Maree Brown. Thinking about how we work through adaptation and relationship to make small changes to our environments that have a large impact and that you have to lead at the speed of organizational trust. The other one is really about leadership, and that’s Brene Brown’s Dare to Lead.

I pick that up very frequently because, to me, I think being a vulnerable courageous, value-centered leader and actually showing who I am on the inside, not just a, a facade or armor, as she calls it in the book is really powerful. So those are the two books that I’d share.

I, I listen to a lot of other podcasts. Lots of true crime, lots of other kinds of news podcasts. If I didn’t listen to Up First every day, I think I would… that’s my 10-minute news bite. And then there are a lot of other higher ed podcasts that are great. College Matters. Our, the folks at ACE have a podcast called DotEDU that I’ve really enjoyed listening to over time.

And then the Mel Robbins podcast, and We Can Do Hard Things. Those are my guilty pleasures. So Keith, what do you got?

Keith Edwards: One of the best lessons I ever learned in grad school was never follow Heather Shea. She’ll make you look bad. You always want to go before Heather, or even better yet, go with Heather, which is what I have made me so successful in my career is partnering with Heather.

I’ll– Two of those books are the ones I have four to recommend, and she already took two of them. But I would say Student Affairs NOW is great. There’s three hundred and thirty episodes. Don’t try and listen to them all, but go back and find the ones and search for the ones and look through the ones that are really meaningful and feel relevant to you now and what you’re facing.

We, we– We’re not trying to get– sell you on the podcast that we released this week. Each week, we’re just trying to add another one to the catalog. I would also really recommend the Current Campus Context episode. Heather does one of those basically every month. It’s a great way to sort through the signal and the noise, and the s- the way she’s set that up with our contributors, they’re always paying attention to the news all the time ’cause they never know when they’re gonna be on the next episode.

So they’re always thinking, they’re always engaging, they’re always talking about it. So you get really informed takes on what is happening. So I– That– Those I think are can’t miss for leaders. The four books. The number one book I recommend is Essentialism by Greg McKeown about the disciplined pursuit of less.

How could you do less so you could be more? I think about that many times every day. Dare to Lead, I think it’s the best of Brené Brown’s for leaders. Emergent Strategy, which Heather also mentioned. I just think in thirty years we’re gonna look back at Adrienne Maree Brown- Yeah … as one of the greatest thinker of our time, the way we now think about Bell Hooks or Maya Angelou or Grace Lee Boggs.

Yeah. I think that she is one of the best thinkers of our time. And the other one I would add is Trauma Stewardship- Yeah … by Laura van Dernoot Lipsky. I got to chat with her on the podcast, so you can find that. But that book about how do we lead people who are engaging in trauma support so that they are well, so that they are not overwhelmed, so that they are not in their, what she calls a trauma mastery response.

I just think that’s really useful for any leaders in student affairs as we’re navigating through that.

Anthony Edwards: Thank you for that. Actually, at the TACUSPA, our webinars committee actually just completed a series on trauma-informed leadership, and so I think that’s seems to be a recurring theme here that’s important for student affairs leaders.

So- Yep … encourage y’all to check those out on our YouTube channel if you ever get a chance. But yeah. I really appreciate you all for joining us today in this– for this really important discussion on leadership and changing times and student affairs Dr. Edwards and Dr. Shea. Some of the takeaways that I, got from this were learning to learn, as being an important skill for, surviving in this period of change.

Higher education isn’t really changing as rapid as the world around us, but that kind of needs to change. Discerning the important from the noise I think is an important skill. Being able to prioritize. Figuring out how to blur the lines between academic affairs and student affairs to support student success.

Aligning student affairs with strategic priorities. Building an ecosystem of support. Helping students develop both AI skills and ethics. Being thoughtful instead of reactive as a leader when it comes to using AI. Being authentic, but building capacity. Using empathy as a leader.

Again, being a learner, doing the inner work. Some of the different resources that were mentioned include Student Affairs NOW, particularly the current campus context episode, or episodes. The College Matters podcast and the IVY podcast, as well as Mel Robbins and We Can Do Hard Things. Books that were recommended including Emergent Strategy, Dare to Lead, Essentialism, and Trauma Stewardship.

So with that, I say thank you again, and I’m gonna turn the presentation over to Dr. Billups.

Hilda Billups: Thank you so much for joining us today. Our next Webinar Wednesday will be on next Wednesday, April fifteenth at noon. We’ll repeat one of your favorite sessions from our fall twenty twenty-five conference, Next Gen Leaders, Supervising with a Gen Z Lens.

Please invite a colleague to join us. Finally, the TACUSPA membership year runs from January to December. If you’re not yet a member to TACUSPA, we encourage you to join us. Thank you, and have a great day.

That was terrific. We had so much fun. Thank you to TACUSPA, Dr. Hilda Billups for organizing, and Dr. Anthony Edwards for hosting. And thanks to our sponsor of today’s episode, Evolve. Given the current context of higher education, we need to invest in leaders with the capacity and capabilities to transform their institutions and the future of higher education.

The Evolve Institute for Higher Education Leadership offers four leadership coaching journeys tailored to four different leadership levels. Each is a three-month, three-month journey that includes individual and group coaching, plus a curated curriculum of short asynchronous video modules. We also offer Evolve for leadership teams.

If you’re ready to evolve your leadership voice, visit evolve-institute.com to learn more. And as always, a huge shout-out to our producer, Natalie Ambrosey, who does all the good work behind the scenes to make us look and sound good. And we love your support of this conversations. Thank you for listening, sharing, and recommending these episodes.

You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast on YouTube or our weekly newsletter where we share the, each new episodes on Wednesday mornings. If you’re so inclined, leave us a five-star review. It really helps these conversations reach even more folks. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks to our fabulous hosts today, Dr.

Anthony Edwards, and our organizer, Dr. Hilda Billups, and our partner, TACUSPA, and to my fellow guest, Dr. Heather Shea. Thanks to everyone who is watching and listening. Make it a great week

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