Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Well I almost think that racism has a way of chipping away at that. Yeah. If you are not combating it.

That it, it can chip away soul spirits. In a way that you don’t even recognize until you find yourself super bitter or feeling dejected or, lots of times I work with people who are dealing with depression because of the way that they’re being oppressed in a particular situation where they’re the only, person of color in a white space.

And so, those, those things are, are super real and have a long term impact. So when a person experiences a microaggression, two things happen. Their blood pressure is elevated and they release the, a cortisone.

Keith Edwards: Hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by a student affairs leader. I have long admired Dr. Stacey Pearson-Wharton. She’s a psychologist, administrative leader, speaker, and healer. She’s also host of her own podcast Being the dot. Today she’s here to talk with us about healing from the wounds of racism.

I am so looking forward to this conversation. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. You can browse our archives and subscribe to our newsletter@studentaffairsnow.com.

This episode is sponsored by Evolve. Evolve is a series of leadership coaching journeys designed to bring clarity, capacity, and confidence, empowering courageous leadership to reimagine the future of higher education. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he, him, his. I’m a speaker, author, and coach, and empowering, courageous, higher education leadership for better tomorrow’s for us all through leadership, learning, and equity.

You can find out more about me. At Keith edwards.com and I’m recording this for my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which is at the intersections of the current and ancestral homelands, the both the Dakota in the and the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to our fabulous guest today, Dr. Stacey. Welcome. I’m so glad you’re here.

Thank you for giving us your precious time and tell folks a little bit more about you.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Thank you Keith. I’m thrilled to be here. I love the podcast. And have for a lot of the entire, was it five years or 10 years? Five years. We

Keith Edwards: just passed our five year birthday. Five, yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And so I’m delighted to be back with you to share a little bit about the current work that I’m doing in ways that we as a field and community can heal from racism.

But like you said my name is Stacey Pearson. I am a higher ed professional. Who happens to have a whole lot of psychology training. Licensed psychologist. And I’ve spent most of my career at big schools, Michigan, U-S-F-U-C-F. But right now I’m currently serving as the Dean of Health and Wellness and director of the counseling center at small liberal Arts institution, Susquehanna University.

I, I have been speaking my whole life from the point I was three, like no room in the end, right? And and about 12 years ago, I took upon the journey of going to talk with campuses and organizations a little bit about how to create more inclusive communities, what to do when there is a racial rupture, and overall how to manage those things.

And I’m continuing to do that work by serving associations, corporations and organizations to build a more inclusive environment. But I also have a small therapy practice and do a little coaching too. And so I’ve been busy and now is the time to get busy because. Things are a little wacko right now.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. That’s your professional judgment I’m sure. It’s, yeah. And I think that’s really great and I’m one of the reasons I mentioned you’re one of the student affairs leaders. I’ve long admired. I remember being there for a conversation you led. It might have been in Tampa for an A CPA event.

And it was just such masterful facilitation of difficult conversations and great points and insights and people sharing their hurt and pain and their anger, and you just did such a masterful job. Not in your home space, but in someone’s suite, in a hotel room that you had walked into five minutes before of just being so present and available and helpful.

And I just remember sitting there thinking I had my own agenda and then I let it go. I was just watching a master at work. I still remember that. And it was really great. I love this work you’re doing around, thank you. Healing the wounds of racism. I. So juicy and so relevant in this time.

About five years ago after the murder of George Floyd, which happened just miles from where I’m talking to you right now. And there seemed to be such energy such focus, such commitment. We now see in retrospect a lot of performativity in that time happening as it was so easily evaporated.

And I think despite some of what’s happening publicly, there’s still a lot of within people even within organizations, maybe now more below the radar or more strategically framed some of that. And the wounding has continued and the wounding has escalated, and the wounding has become public, and the wounding has become socially acceptable in many contexts or even bragged about or lauded.

And so whether that’s individuals on the playground at school, feeling like I see leaders doing this, not being held accountable, even being lauded or in conference rooms or, at conferences or just in our conversations or then the things that, that folks are exposed to structurally and systemically on the news and their social media feed and song lyrics and the policies and things that are being made and how they’re they’re not being met with outrage and discussed.

I see this happening all around us and the hurt and the pain is there and the wounding. I was just at A-C-P-A-I-C-A, the Institute on the curricular approach. Dr. Tanya Williams was there talking about liberation and love as a strategy, and it got me even more excited to talk with you today. So long rambling intro.

Let’s begin with what are the wounds of racism and then we’ll move to the healing. So what are the wounds of racism?

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: So I think the wounds are both systemic and organizational and chronic. As well as individual. And so when I think about how people are wounded by racism, I think about serial type threat and the wealth gap and poverty and redlining and not feeling like they belong.

Just feeling disregarded disassociated or disconnected, if you will, and devalued. So that’s how it plays out systemically. And there are a thousand other examples that I could give from re resumes on names and now it’s America’s Naval was around racism was a nie. And now the day is a Audi and it’s out in full for, it’s like I’m here to be who I am. And that is something, again, as you said earlier, to be lauded. But there’s also a mind, body, soul wounding that happens as a result of the chronic experience of racism. A recent study found for black adolescents found that those.

That black adolescents are experiencing racism online at least six times a day, at least six times a day. And the same is true for adults that 50% of or 60% of folks indicated that they have at least that daily experience of racism. And so those things end up giving you chronic stress. Can stunt your cognitive development.

Can bring about ps PTSD symptoms difficulty with emotion regulation, difficulty in trusting others, and that kind of rumination, if this was happening, is that what they’re doing? Was that a knife in my back? But maybe it wasn’t. I don’t know. But really the energy that it takes to try to.

Live in a racist society, but also thrive in it as well, because that’s the ultimate goal, is to be able to thrive.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it’s important that the institutional, the organizational and the interpersonal are separate and they’re all intertwined, right? As you pointed to.

What we see systemically gives permission to what people then do interpersonally.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Absolutely.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Absolutely. And I just think there’s a boldness from the top of leadership in our country now for people to just be wilding out. And even that on the amount of, the phone camera has become a tool of the revolution.

And that in the daily recordings of people experiencing racism, whether that be hypervigilance, that that a white person feels like it’s up to them to police people or, even this whole thing of disappearing people and apprehending people. And not because you’re checking their papers, but you are looking at them and then making a decision about whether they should be arrested or detained.

Or disappeared or not.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. By their look or their accent.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yeah.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. I really appreciate you bringing up to the was that I’m knife in my back? Was it not? And I think that cost of constantly questioning Yeah. Is that what I experienced? Did I not? And even if you’re wrong and it wasn’t, and it was innocuous and you miss, you still are spending all this time and energy wondering, wondering, curious, second guessing self-doubt, challenging, wondering.

So much energy that could be focused on, as you said, just normal human development. Academic learning and growth. Relationship

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: building. Building. Building wealth. Yeah. Tending to your ancestors needs or, yeah. Even those in the future. Yeah. That, that it takes up a lot of capacity.

The there’s a scholar, I love this term so much that I’d say it as frequently as possible, but the there’s a scholar old one who wrote the book. Even the white, even the rat was white and G green cobs, and they talk about healthy cultural paranoia.

Keith Edwards: And the notion, slow down and explain this to me.

I’ve never heard this before. Healthy cultural paranoia. Okay. I’m taking notes. Healthy

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: cultural is the notion that minoritized people and this is not just for people of color, but anybody with a minoritized identity is constantly scanning the environment to see if they’re safe, but also it’s a trauma response.

To, the habitual chronic nature of the experience of the microaggression or systemic racism or whatever or macroaggressions. Yes. Yes, exactly. And so healthy cultural paranoia is a trauma response and it keeps you safe, but also. It’s cultural paranoia. Like I, you need that. You need to be questioning where you are and what’s happening.

And I got pulled over by the police a couple of weeks ago and I was hysterical. I’m like the person had not even come to the car yet and I was coming undone.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And because of

Keith Edwards: all the things you’ve experienced and heard about and seen and all of that. Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And I think too.

What what you’ve heard about too. So not only healthy cultural paranoia, but also I forgot just that quick healthy cultural paranoia. Oh, vicarious trauma.

Keith Edwards: That,

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: That the notion that, that you are traumatized by something that you witnessed or saw or heard about? I have a policy personally to protect my peace and to not take in too much violence that I don’t watch videos of black people being killed. Or being, I just don’t, and not that I’m in denial ’cause I know what’s happening. Particularly ’cause I’m seeing those people in my office and in my practice. Who are dealing with and negotiating those things. And so I know that it’s happening, but for me to take it in, nah, that’s okay.

Because what I don’t want is I don’t need the vicarious trauma of what it meant to have the knee on the neck. And to be watching a man go from life to death. And that’s something I think that people should think about both for themselves and for their students. How much of the trauma porn do you wanna take in to protect yourself mind, body, and your soul?

Keith Edwards: Yeah, I really relate to that. I think that’s something that I wrestle with. I want to be aware, I don’t want to, but I don’t also want to be traumatized, right? I don’t want to become desensitized to it. I don’t want to fill my brain with it, right? Because I think that so that balance of being aware and not oblivious.

And not to turn a blind eye and sit in privilege. But also to not consume things that are not healthy in these ways. I think, as you said, you’re very aware about it, so you don’t need to watch the videos.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And I,

Keith Edwards: I feel that way around I feel a way around some of those things.

People say, oh, did you watch the video? It’s terrible. And I don’t need to watch the video. I know, I understand. I’m ha I’ll read about it and Right. That’s I, but, but around, people are saying, have you watched this ladies movie around men and suicide or sexual violence?

I’m like, no I do that all day. I don’t need. I don’t need to consume more. I’m glad some of those things are out there making people who aren’t aware, more aware.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: I almost think that racism has a way of chipping away at that. Yeah. If you are not combating it that it can chip away soul spirits. In a way that you don’t even recognize until you find yourself super bitter or feeling dejected or lots of times I work with people who are dealing with depression because of the way that they’re being oppressed in a particular situation where they’re the only person of color in a white space.

And those things are super real. And. Have a long term impact. So when a person experiences a microaggression, two things happen. Their blood pressure is elevated and they release the, a cortisone.

And the chronic kind of consistent release of that stress hormone ups the level of stress from normal everyday stress.

But this kind of, this cortisone running through your body constantly. Is not good for you?

Keith Edwards: No.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And can lead to, just race-based stress or race-based trauma however you wanna put it. In an individual that can lead to mental health issues, physical health issues. Yeah.

Keith Edwards: Inflammation, heart issues, yes.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yeah.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. So many things.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Absolutely. And some of those things that are more common in communities of color than they are. Like blood pressure.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: A high blood pressure. Not everybody has a blood pressure, but high blood pressure. Yeah.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that framing helps us understand some of these differences that we often frame as biological, as maybe more cultural, right?

Yes. These are things that are being done to people, not who they are biologically which I think is, or

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: systemically.

Keith Edwards: Systemically, right? Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Culturally, systemically in the relationships and yeah, the constant questioning and challenging, as you mentioned so many people who are minoritized, having to constantly wonder, am I safe?

Is this okay? In this environment, in this organization with this person? I get in a lot of Ubers and rarely worry if I’m gonna be safe in that. I often worry if the driver thinks they’re safe with me in the vehicle. How do I signal yep, we’re fine. You’re okay. I’m not a threat to you.

But, and that’s time consuming and I get a little irritated that I have to do that. But to be on the other side of it and have to worry about your safety is a whole nother level of that. I think we framed that there are plenty that racism is real. It is, it affects all of us particularly folks of color.

It affects them directly and indirectly at the interpersonal, organizational, systemic, cultural, all of these different levels and how it does that physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Let’s get to the juice. So how do we heal from this, Stacey?

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: So I think there are a couple things that I wanna focus on.

Yeah. Today a little bit, and this is not the whole kit and caboodle, but this is just a few things that could be helpful. Along with being the victim of something, frequently people feel shame or humiliated. And I think it’s important to deal with that. Upfront and particularly as it relates to internalized racism.

A while ago, my son had driven in from California and got here early and I was away and I drove all night to get home to be able to make breakfast for everybody.

And I like, let’s go to the grocery store. So he and I checked to the grocery store. He’s in kind of his PJ’s. Or sweats and I’m in whatever I drove from North Carolina Inn and we get to the cashier and something is wrong with the transaction and the cashier says is it welfare?

And. And then, I immediately wanna try to have a workshop right there in the middle.

Keith Edwards: You move from offended to

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: workshop here’s my apples and lemme tell you something. Yeah. I, what I remember about that is that that my son was he lived in l la at the time, he was completely be withered.

Bewildered. And just, it was very disquieting for him. But the first question he said to asked me was do you think it was how we’re dressed?

And so taking ownership. It’s

Keith Edwards: my fault. I must have done something wrong.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yeah. Taking ownership for something that was not ours. That racism is, although we’re impacted by it and it is not our fault and it’s not us up to us to fix it, but racism is the problem of the racist.

Not the offender. Now we are impacted by it. And those things. But we don’t need to take ownership for it. People do things from an internalized racism point of like over tipping.

Or I think it’s important to reject tropes about us and stereotypes and be outward about that.

Like I am not an angry black woman.

Keith Edwards: But

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: when I’m angry, I’m still black. And yeah. To, so I don’t shy away from that but the notion of it being a trope or stereotype or somehow offensive, typically, I’ll be honest with you, I typically don’t yell at work. Because of this trope.

But sometimes I just need to put a little base in my voice.

And it be okay with me and not being afraid about how somebody else is gonna respond. And you can say that about whatever trope you, you want to but to actively reject it and outwardly rejected to say, no, I don’t think so.

And calling it what it is. That’s a trope. Yeah. And so really while

Keith Edwards: still allowing yourself the full pany of human experience absolutely. Which I think the, sort of the flip side is then the unhealthy version of that is I reject the trope of angry black woman and so I will never express or acknowledge my anger.

Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And that’s not healthy. No. Because then that leads to all kinds of physical symptoms. For a person as well as as well as psychological too. It’s interesting because I think, I didn’t mention this, but I meant to that the pain and the problem with racism is not just a problem for people of color, but there are cost to costs to.

White people as well. White because of racism. And so whether it is the energy that you spend in denying that there’s a problem or just what being mean or kind does to you, or even not being able to fully experience what a person of color has to offer you and bring to the table because of your belief of a stereotype or prejudice or implicit bias.

And I also, the remember the white identity scale.

And I sometimes I think the ultimate that if you call a white person a racist, like it’s like somehow you said that you have a terminal disease and you have 48 hours to live, right? Yeah. But the but the fear around that is also not helpful psychologically.

So walking. Walking around thinking that you’re gonna be called that and maybe you are. But and trying to avoid that at all costs. It’s also a cost to creativity as well as relationships.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And I’m not saying poor white people, I’m not saying that, but what I am saying is the cost of racism.

It’s not only for people of color, but it’s also to white people. Yeah.

Keith Edwards: I think this has been a pivotal thing in my life as a white person is one hearing Cornell West when I was a junior in college, talk about his internalized racism. And I remember sitting there thinking, I’m not racist.

I’m not racist. And then Cornell West talking about his internalized racism, I was like if Cornell West, this scholar of African American history, this black man, yes. If he can acknowledge he’s internalized some racist messages from white supremacy culture, what chance do I have? Let’s just acknowledge it and to let go of I’m not racist in the constant proving and instead go, I probably have learned some racist things that I don’t like along the way.

Absolutely. How can I become more conscious and more aware? Shifts us from proving that I’m woke to focusing on how can I wake up.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And sometimes I wanna say to white people that are question whether they’re racist of course you are. Of course.

Keith Edwards: How could you, and that’s not your fault.

You’re not a bad person, but you consumed all this

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: stuff your

Keith Edwards: whole life.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yes. Now it’s what? It’s your fault. Once you realize what it is, if you don’t do anything to make it different. Of course you are like, yes. Don’t be ridiculous.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. And that can be really threatening. On the flip side, I’ll just share, it’s so liberating to be like, I wonder if that is racist thought that I just had, it might be,

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: yes.

Keith Edwards: Oh, I gotta be careful about that. Okay. That’s good enough.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And sometimes I say to myself that was racist.

And just call calling myself out.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Yeah. I, before anybody

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: else has to.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think the other thing that I’ll also highlight that you mentioned is just the awareness for me as a white person of all the costs to me of racism against people of color.

You mentioned the relationships. The challenges, whether it’s getting in an Uber or my relationship with you. But then also just the self-awareness. What kind of delusions do I have about myself that are inaccurate? The costs and the pain, as we just said of this sort of, wow, that was a racist thought.

Or I didn’t, I couldn’t remember that person’s name. And is that because of racism? That the time that takes up? But also just, I live here in Minneapolis. What I have paid tremendous costs. Yes. Spiritually, collectively, community, financially because of racism in against people of color in my community.

And then if we think it in a more. A larger scale as a citizen in the United States. What taxes are needed because of racism? What contributions have not been made to society? ‘Cause that person didn’t get tracked into right surgery, but got tracked into nursing or got tracked into this in middle school rather than this thing.

And what contributions to the workforce to innovation. To create so you can be really cold at an economic large scale. Absolutely. You can be really human at a relationship scale, but also just my sense of self is deteriorated. Because I have lived my whole life in a racist system, society, context and culture and work really hard to unlearn that as we go.

Try not to deny it, but to work to unlearn it.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: So a couple other things I wanna highlight it is inevitable that we are going to have experiences of racism. It just is going to happen and oftentimes we are triggered. So what triggers me is when people, when I feel disrespected or when I feel like I’m not being valued.

And so it’s important in those times to find a place of stability and safety, but also to figure out to figure out how you wanna soothe yourself and soothing yourself. Could be a plan that you have to respond to the trigger. Oftentimes when we when I’m working with a client that is dealing with some kind of trauma, we build a kit of soothing so that we can work through the trauma way before we start to talk about it.

And that mean this one the same way. And so really figuring out what’s going to be your self-soothing in that moment. And maybe not in the moment, but close to the moment as possible. To mitigate the impact of constantly being stung by mosquitoes.

Keith Edwards: I just wanna go back to the stability and safety.

I heard that both physically I wanna be away from the situation. I wanna be an environment where I feel comfortable, where I feel safe. Where I feel like I can breathe and I can sort through this, but also internally, how can I find a place within me? Yes. That is, that I have stability within me and I have safety within me.

And both of those seem important. One without the other doesn’t probably work.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And I think a great tool for this is mindfulness.

I really think that being able to go into yourself Yeah. And concentrate on your breathing. I have a little mindfulness exercise here. I meant to ask you about that earlier.

But that. Really, it starts with I am here. I’m whole, I’m worthy and moves to I release the need to shrink, that I rise in my truth. And so really having something like that for you, calling in the ancestors to feel their strength in your spine, the wisdom in your heart, and really finding places and ways to be able to lock in to yourself.

In the moment so that you don’t lose your job or whatever the case may be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Keith Edwards: I think that’s really useful. And I heard some things about some mi certainly a lot of it was mindfulness, but, connecting with developing and connecting with inner resources. Connecting with the body.

And also, again, we’re coming back to this spiritual aspect too of ancestors, which I think we can mean in a lot of different ways, but Right. There can be a lot of strength and power there. So it feels like there’s the. Safety and stability externally and internally. And then soothing.

What might be some examples? You talk about a kit, what might be some examples that, that folks might use?

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: So I, I’ll tell you one. So I love affirmation cards. So this is Tabitha Brown’s very good card. And just this, and this is a great prophylactic because it gives you and this says my voice matters.

Yeah. And then I actually have my own affirmation card. For being the dot. And this one says, I belong at the table whether I’m welcome or not. And so that constant kind of reminder of you are affirming yourself and not waiting for somebody or something outside of you to do it, but you being able to affirm yourself.

I think that sometimes a walk is helpful. Sometimes it’s good to call a friend who wants to be a millionaire? Not that,

Keith Edwards: yeah. Yeah. Phone a friend. Phone a friend. Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Phone a friend. And somebody that you can be authentic with in the moment. And then I think other little things that are more mindful, mindfully washing the dishes, knitting, crocheting.

We talked about going for a walk, but going, I know you’re a runner.

I think still.

And and so going for a run is good as well. One of my favorites is just drinking a cup of tea. That there’s something that’s comforting and soothing about that. And it, and it all doesn’t need to be this grant.

I’m taking a 10 day vacation degrees. Although That’s lovely. That is lovely.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yes. But really being able to find ways to soothe and self-soothe are important.

As you manage to trigger.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. And I think, we’ve talked on this podcast a lot about the cheap self-care versus how can I return to wholeness.

I just, my daughter was just. Home had a rough day and we just talked with her about what do you need to do today? Not just to feel good in the moment or just lay in bed, but what’s gonna help you be better tomorrow? And she was like, oh, that would be this and this and this. And so some of those I don’t know.

I think about it, self care versus self-healing.

What is attending to the wound, right? Getting at the roots. What’s gonna help me be more whole? When I say, what does self care look like tonight? It can lead to some unhealthy behaviors, but if it’s what’s gonna lead me to more wholeness, yes then I, maybe I turn to inspiring poetry, or I tend to relationship, or I tend to connection or as you mentioned.

Time alone or meditation or prayer or walk or activity or just nature? I’m looking out at a beautiful, bright red maple tree on blue sky. And it is, it’s remarkable. And that tree doesn’t care about any of my problems. It doesn’t. It’s been here before. It’ll be here after.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: I’m, can I add this to please?

Oftentimes when people experience racism and then subsequently triggered, they feel a loss of power and or control. Yeah. And so I think it’s important in those times when you’re trying to manage your reaction to the trigger that you find. Ways to be in power and control.

And it may not be in this specific environment, but so what’s a great example?

Keith Edwards: Yeah. So a

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: great example would be writing your congressman or figuring out what you can control.

Keith Edwards: That,

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Because you may not be able to control everything, but you can control something. And so figuring out what you have power and control over. Can help you feel less disempowered or powerless?

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yeah. I think

Keith Edwards: these things are really helpful. And I don’t want to skip over that. When you experience the harm, it’s okay to be hurt.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yes. And angry.

Keith Edwards: Yes. And dysregulated and upset. Those are human experiences and

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: and normal emotions and yeah. To think that somehow that you are going to be able to avoid that is, is not reasonable.

Keith Edwards: It

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: is reasonable to be upset to, sometimes I say I just had a tough white people week. And, it’s like everything is popping and racism is

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Audi and on and on. But I know that happens sometimes. And and to be able to admit that and then soothe that and then figure out where I have power and control is really important. I have a girlfriend not at my institution. Who when something really bad happens in the workplace, she goes home. She’s I don’t wanna be bothered that this is too much. And in order for me to maintain myself in this moment, I’m gonna exit.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And then I’ll be back tomorrow.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yeah.

Keith Edwards: The Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu who’ve both experienced, genocide of their people and death threats. Talk about shifting from reactivity to choosing your response. And feeling reactive. Again, a human experience totally legitimate and justified. You just don’t wanna make big life decisions in that moment.

No, you do not. And how do you get to a place? I’m where you can choose a response that is in alignment with your values and how you move forward. So I’m I’m seeing a recipe here okay. I like it. Experience the racial wound. Step one is maybe stability and sta externally and internally,

Soothing to return you to where you want to be. We talked about some different ways, and then agency that power and control. Yeah. What can I do? What can I what would you add or what are we missing? I would mourn the loss.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Okay. So deal with what it feel, I think we’ve said this in different words.

Yeah. But to really give yourself the space. Because sometimes it’s a relationship with somebody and they do something and you’re confused by that. Yeah. But to really give yourself the opportunity to mourn that loss, whether it’s lost with a big L or smaller L Yeah. But that you give yourself the space to either be sad by it or to mourn it.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. And that might be loss of trust in a relationship. It might feel a loss of safety in a place where you were starting to feel comfort and welcome.

It might feel a loss of respect as you mentioned, that can show up in lots of different ways.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: So the last one or two things that I would note are it’s important to build a counter narrative.

That we are, as people of color, we are bombarded with negative messages. Messages about who we are, what we bring to the table, what we don’t bring to the table, that we are not intelligent, that we are criminals, that there’s an underachievement piece that just negative messages and even now people trying to.

Pretend that Chavez or Harvey Milk or Shirley didn’t exist. That we’re just gonna take that away. And so it’s important to have your own, again, counter narrative to deal with the negative pieces and whether that is just to sit and to think about. What you’re proud of about being a part of your ethnic group.

What, what makes you proud about being native and what makes you proud about being Latinx or even what you celebrate, what you like. And to be able to do that away from the white gaze

I think is also very important. And then those things can remind you of what you love about your people.

And counteract the negativity that’s coming from the outside or maybe even your own internalized race on the inside. But just to push back, it almost is like an intentional. Anti-racist behavior to do as a per person of color to help yourself.

Keith Edwards: Let me follow up on that. I love this doing that away from the white gaze.

Can you just say a bit more about what would that look like? And then I’m obviously wondering as a white person, how can I be helpful in that and not in the way what can I do or not do? Oh, that’s a great question.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: I like doing it away from the white gaze because then, because sometimes when you do it in within the white gaze that you even still try to make it palatable or comfortable with people.

But the fact of the matter is that you might knock if you book.

Keith Edwards: Or some,

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: What is it? Hiphop, I forget what the genre’s called. But hiphop that is celebrates whatever about your people or just feels celebratory. Someone

Keith Edwards: or angry or revolutionary or, whatever.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: And so to be able to do that in your own space is pretty important. I believe in the power of affinity groups a lot. And I live in rural Pennsylvania and part of the way that I am able to stick and stay here and have been able to do that is to. Find places in spaces that are away from the white gaze.

And that I can just be myself and let my hair down and not have to explain anything and yeah. And so that, that is, is helpful. But I do think that building that kind of narrative, even in your art in your home, if that’s something that you that you like, or the books that you read.

Or whatever the case may be. That I think that’s pretty important. And for our allies I think the same is true that you could do that about other cultural groups.

Keith Edwards: Yeah.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: I heard an author many years ago, but I think it was brilliant, say that you should read a book, at least one a year of somebody not of your gender not of your racial group and not of your sexual orientation.

And so really to get a glimpse of how art is showing up in other cultures Yeah. Gives you a little bit of a finger on how other cultures are showing up. Yeah. And I think that’s pretty good.

Keith Edwards: I love that reminder about art. It’s such a, it’s such a, an easy way to invite in other perspectives and particularly art gets it not just, different news sources, but art gets it the spiritual and the emotional right.

A little bit, and whether that’s music or movies or TV shows or paintings or poetry or podcasts or, whatever that might be. Yeah, I think that could be really great. We’re short on time. So real quick what difference can this kind of healing make beyond the individual experience?

It certainly makes sense that an individual experience these things and what that person can do and how to navigate that environment. The stability and safety, the soothing, the agency, the the mourning, the loss, the counter narratives I get. How so helpful this could be for a person. What about for the collective?

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: My fantasy is that there would be a contagion effect.

That, that the more that people are able to heal and thrive in white spaces as people of color, the better the whole of us becomes. And that the healing will allow for people of color to live more full lives. Again, not that racism is our fault, not that it’s up for us to fix it, but we dealing with it.

So we’re in it. So we gotta figure out for ourselves how to thrive. Despite it. I also think that the more we do it, the more people will feel valued and respected and less disregarded, more of a sense of belonging and connectedness.

That that really some of the feelings that typically come up with racism will be mitigated, disrupted, or interrupted, and the impact will be.

If

Keith Edwards: you’ll

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: and I also think that for our students, that this is particularly important for them to have role models that are doing this, but also for for themselves to be able to get some skills while they’re on our campuses in order for them to be able to function and in the world as we are living in it right now.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. I love the reminder that that the more that other people thrive, the better it is for me, right? Yes. And so whether we’re talking about the more that people of color can thrive in spite of living in racist systems, that is better, not just for them, but for all of us. Yes. What’s

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: that? Euphemism boats lifted something.

Keith Edwards: I’m not sure about that one, but I hear in Minnesota and Paul Stone’s line is when we all do better, we all do better. And I love it. Yeah. And it’s just a reminder that we live in a time where it is so binary. Yes. And Bell hooks remind us that binary thinking is do culture.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yes. And we

Keith Edwards: live in a binary of Democrat, Republican blue red states.

Us versus them. And it can be easy to be deceived that advances for people of color comes at the cost of white people. When that’s not true. That advances for trans people as a threat to men or women, which is not true. That the more. Not in a microcosm. The more that there’s thriving among people who have historically and consistently been marginalized that my kids go to school with, the more thriving those other kids are, the less harm, the more thriving, the more capacity, the more spaciousness, the more relationship, the more thriving that my kids who experience a lot of privilege are gonna experience.

And so that notion that, it’s not us versus them. It’s not a zero sum game. It’s not a binary that we are in this together, which is what every single spiritual tradition would teach us. That we are in this together, that we are all interconnected, and the more that other people thrive, that is so good.

For them, for me, and then for our collective society.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Absolutely. What we know is that the more diverse the classroom participants, so the students are. The better the learning.

Keith Edwards: Yeah. And imagine it wasn’t just diverse, but they were thriving. And safe and had that stability in the classroom.

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. We are running out of time, Dr. Stacey. Okay. This podcast is called Student Affairs. Now we always like to end with what you’re thinking, troubling or pondering now, and also where folks who might want to connect with you can do that. So what is with you now?

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: How are we gonna build back?

So I’ve been thinking so much about our history, people being arrested, book span, rights being removed, people being disappeared, and just wondering how are we gonna build back? And I’ve been thinking about what it will mean to do that. How do we restore the critical nature of nature that people thinking of?

I would love to go back to, not love to go back, but 2020 when everybody was all about being anti-racist. Whether it was performative or not. That, that’s what people were and we will have to get back to that. We just will the cycle of racism goes, progress, fight, legal response and goes around again.

But so we are gonna, we are gonna come out of this, right? What? And even though it feels like it’s impossible, we are and I almost feel like we need to put a think tank together to start to think about how we build back.

Keith Edwards: Oh, I love it. I love it. I’m so inspired because I think.

We started with the harm and how devastated and hopeless and demoralized it can be, and the notion that we will build back. You’re reminding me of a conversation we had with Jamie Washington and Sam Offerer and Becky Martinez about the kind of challenges that we’re having now are result of progress.

They push pushback on progress and Yeah. How do we the focus on build back is how do we move through this pushback into more progress and further progress and what that can look like.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Yeah,

Keith Edwards: if folks want to connect with you, where can they do that?

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: So you can reach me. My website is dr Stacey inspires.org.

Come there and join the Thrive Tribe and get all the stuff that content and things that I put out. I’m also starting a multi-state black women support group. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. I have a newsletter there called Breaking Free, and then my email is Dr. Stacey. At dr Stacey inspires.org

Keith Edwards: Great.

And we’ll get all of that in the show notes for folks. Who wanna just find that and click on that.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: All right.

Keith Edwards: Thank you so much, Dr. Stacey. Thank you so much.

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: Thank you so much. I really appreciate so much.

Keith Edwards: You have left me informed, I’ve learned lots of new things, and you’ve also left me inspired inspire.

That’s the

Stacey Pearson-Wharton: goal, right?

Keith Edwards: Yeah. Dr. Stacey inspires, right? I had that done even before you said it, but I do feel inspired to, move to action, move to belief, do my own work and then also really inspired what is collectively possible for all. So thank you for all the things that you’re doing great in this conversation that will help so many people who experience racism directly.

And for me, it’s been incredibly helpful for me as well as a white person who experiences both the privilege of being a white person in a racist society and the harms of being a white person. And a racist society. So thank you for your leadership. This has been terrific. I also wanna thank our sponsor of this episode of Evolve.

Higher education is facing unprecedented challenges, and we need courageous leadership now more than ever, and poor leadership has never been more costly. At the Evolve Institute, we are empowering a new generation of leaders with the capacity to turn these challenges into possibilities and lead with and through these challenges.

At Evolve, we help leaders develop the capacity to lead with clarity, confidence, and courage. We offer leadership coaching journeys for leadership teams and individual leaders focused on executive leaders, emerging executives, emerging leaders, and those leading for equity. As always, a huge shout out to our producer, Nat and Rosie.

Who does all the behind the scenes work to make Dr. Stacey and I look and sound good, and we love your support From our audience of these conversations. You can really help us by subscribing to the newsletter, to the podcast, and on YouTube and Ivona. Leave us a five star review. It helps great conversations, powerful conversations like this, reach even more.

Folks, I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks to our fabulous guest today, Dr. Stacey Pearson, Wharton, and to everyone who is watching and listening, make it a great week.

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