Brendan Cantwell
Things that are making me optimistic are fueling far between, and they come with a lot of caveats. I think we ought to be pretty clear eyed that the situation for higher ed right now is very, very challenging. The outlook is grim. Couple of things that I’ll point to. One is that the Senate and Senate Republicans do seem far more open to funding research than the House and the administration. I don’t think that that’s actually going to result in much the maintenance of funding or much additional funding in the near term.

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs now. The online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host, Heather Shea, today’s episode is part of our current campus context series, a limited run I hosted this spring, tracking and unpacking the evolving political, legal and cultural forces shaping higher education. It’s been three months since our last conversation in early May, and so today we’re doing something a little bit different. We’re going to recap the shifts, the pain points and silver linings, if there are any that we’ve seen, hopefully emerge, and I’m really excited to be joined by three of our returning panelists from earlier in the series to reflect on what’s happened, what surprised us, and what these changes might mean for higher education student affairs. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every Wednesday, and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. Again, my name is Heather Shea. My pronouns are she her, and I am broadcasting today from the ancestral, traditional and contemporary lands of the Anishinaabe, three fires, confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa and Potawatomi peoples, otherwise known as East Lansing, home of Michigan State University where I work. So today, we’re asking what has happened over the past three months, and why does it matter for higher education? And I am thrilled to be joined once again by three folks who will be familiar for folks who’ve been watching our series first, welcome back. Dr Brendan Cantwell,

Brendan Cantwell
hey, great to be here

Heather Shea
Brendan is a professor of higher adult and lifelong education at Michigan State, also on my campus, and he works primarily with higher education policy, governance and the political economy of higher ed. Also been pretty prolific this summer in contributing and writing. Maybe we’ll link to some of those articles and other things you’ve been doing. Brendan, it’s pretty it’s pretty cool. Also joining us again is Dr Felicia Commodore, welcome back, Felicia.

Felecia Commodore
Hi, hi, thank you. Excited to be here.

Heather Shea
Felicia is an associate professor in education policy, organization and leadership at the University of Illinois. Urbana Champaign, whose research, your research examines leadership, governance and administrative practices, particularly in HBCUs MSIs and among black women leaders. And finally, Dr Dimitri Morgan, welcome back, Dimitri.

Demetri Morgan
It’s good to be back.

Heather Shea
Dr Morgan. Dimitri Morgan is an associate professor of education at the University of Michigan, whose expertise includes institutional governance, campus climate, student activism and STEM education in higher ed. So excited you all are here. Let’s get into today’s conversation. So I want to start by looking back. We’re going to kind of take stock over the past three months. So I’d love to have maybe Felicia start with, what are some of the events, headlines and moments that stand out to you as having the biggest long term implications? And then how have if they have institutions responded? And have you noticed any turning points over the past three months?

Felecia Commodore
Yeah, so it’s been a doozy, so much. I think, if I were to say kind of the major things I think are having lasting implications. From what we can see now is the canceling of the NSF and NIH grants and funding, I mean, that touched a large swath of the higher education community in various ways, and it, I mean, to the point where we’re now having to revisit how we what fiscal models we’ve used at institutions for decades now, and so I think that is one of the things that has had some lasting input or impact that will have long term effects. I would say the second is some of the policies regarding our international students, that many of our campuses will not have the same number or level of international students on campus, whether because of some of the policies that change that have caused some of them not to be able to get visas. Or because of things like the ICE raids and the kind of domestic terrorism towards our international and immigrant students, some of them have self deported. Some of them have just decided they’re not going to be going to US institutions, and it’s just too dangerous. And so I think for those of us who work at institutions that, particularly that have had a high level of international students, we know, we know what the impact is going to be, not just in kind of our knowledge power and our community, but also fiscally, it’s going to really already having a really large impact on our institutions. And then I think the third thing, and I think it’s more of a cultural impact than I would say a direct impact institutions, but watching Columbia and Harvard negotiate extortion where, but I think that has had a chilling effect on the on leadership in the field, particularly at institutions who Aren’t resourced like that. I think people are really they did not expect that. And I think people are really sitting like, waiting, like, what does that mean for us? And so I think those three things are having immediate impact, but definitely are going to have long, lasting impact on how institutions move from here on out

Heather Shea
Brendan, what? What would you add? What have you been kind of tracking?

Brendan Cantwell
Yeah, I mean, it’s an extensive list of things that have happened, and Felicia certainly covered quite, quite a few of them, the administration’s tactic of flooding the zone with all kinds of stuff makes it hard to keep track of what’s going on, who it’s impacting today, who it might impact tomorrow. Your question pointed to the longer term impacts of higher education, and that’s really hard to forecast. But I think when we’re, you know, when we begin to kind of project out into the longer term, lots of these things are going to have major impacts. One that is a little bit under the radar from myself, from others, and certainly from the media, I think, is the one big, beautiful bill. You know, we have to give everything a gaudy name now to just enter that register, that complaint, the which is the big Republican tax and spending bill that moved through the House and Senate this summer, through a process called reconciliation that allows Congress to pack a whole bunch of stuff into a single bill, so long as it has to do with the budget, and then the President signed in into law. And it was a little bit touch and go whether this bill would pass, but I think you know, ultimately it was always going to pass and and it it made some pretty big changes to higher education, and I think that they will have some lasting impacts the provisions that were proposed by the house, or a little bit more dramatic than the ones that the Senate eventually implemented and made it into the bill that got signed. But even the Senate Bill is probably the biggest revision to student loans. Gosh, maybe since 1972 when there was a major reauthorization of the Higher Education Act. And without getting into too much detail, in part because I’m not as a financial aid scholar, and this stuff is tricky to me and everybody, but it really reduces the pathway for loan forgiveness. It makes it a lot harder for people who thought they might have a promise of being able to discharge all or some of their loans through public service and other mechanisms for loan forgiveness, it narrows that path, and so there’s going to be a lot of people now and in the future who are going to be really on the hook for their loans in ways that they may not have expected. I think that will drive down public opinion and people’s feelings about higher education. People are already pretty salty about student loans. This has been a hot political issue for a long time. It also limits student graduate student borrowing. Puts this like $100,000 cap on grad student borrowing in general, and it expands it to 200,000 for professional programs deciding what. A professional program is is going to be a little bit complicated. But even at $2,000 $200,000 which seems like a lot of money, students who are medical students, especially, and to a lesser extent, law students, can hit into that real quick. And there have not typically been a lot of scholarships and tuition discounting that happens in medical education. And so putting those limits on on grads, on on grad borrowing, I think, are going to probably make it a lot harder for students who come from families that can’t afford really big tuition payments to get a medical education. And so it may even make having medical programs tricky for places that aren’t especially well resourced. I mean, the biggest medical schools are going to be okay, but other places down the line and we have a physician shortage, so I think that that’s going to be a major impact on higher education, and what it means for teaching hospitals is going to be a big impact for higher education. And then the other part of the one big, beautiful bill that I want to highlight is that it shifts, it cuts taxes for the rich, and it shifts, and partially, only partially, offsets those tax cuts for the rich with cuts to health care spending and nutrition assistance, right? So that’s going to generally, I oppose that, like on principle, it’s going to harm poor folks and benefit rich folks, and it’s going to make our community sicker and less well, but it’s also going to have an impact on higher education, because states, when are going to have this choice, do we fund states have to balance their budget? Do we fund higher ed? Continue to fund higher ed, or do we shift some of that money into making up some of the lost money for healthcare, especially and also nutrition programs? The federal government’s cut, and I think a lot of states are going to choose, including many blue states, and maybe especially blue states, are going to choose to fund healthcare and nutrition, and that means that the fiscal outlook for public colleges and universities in the long in the medium and long term, I think, is pretty constrained, that the amount of money available to states to fund higher ed is going to be tighter than it has been, and we all know it’s been tight for a long time. And so those are the kind of things that I think we ought to be thinking about in terms of long term consequences.

Felecia Commodore
And Can I jump in just real quick Heather here, because I want to make this connecting point, because I think what Brendan shares is important, but thinking about this big, beautiful and quotation marks bill so you see this cut to access for for borrowing, for grad students. You see the cuts that are going to cost state staff to make some decisions. Pair that with loss of NSF funding, loss of NIH so like all of the avenues, right? Because there may have been, if we cut grab borrowing, maybe we would have research money to help with, you know, overhead to maybe provide funding for students. We don’t have, like that a lot as much anymore, right? So it’s the it’s coming from both sides and shrinking in and we’ve already seen states starting to choose other things for their to balance their budget than higher education, particularly the states that got hit by the firing of the federal workers, they had to project a loss of state income tax. And because of that number of those states had to redo their budget, and they went to institutions that they had already appropriated money to and said, We need $8,000 back. We need $6,000 back. We need $15,000 back, right? We need $2 million back. So we already are seeing states who are like, if it’s going to be a choice between this and in higher ed, we’re going to choose this. So I think Brendan is right. We’re already seeing that

Heather Shea
Dimitri, what about you? What would you add?

Demetri L. Morgan
Yeah, the only thing I would add, and it’s actually a compliment, for lack of a better word, to what my colleagues have shared. So one of the things that I regularly do, maybe for a hobby, maybe because I’m a nihilist, is try to pretty closely follow what, what I call the sort of higher education intellectual right? So the think tanks, the you know, because a lot of you know what the things that they’re putting out are kind of really clear. You know, everybody’s sort of familiar with Project 2025, now, but a lot of the think tanks and writers and thinkers are, you know, quite pleased. You know, this is sort of right on schedule, and so last month, and I’ll link it so that, you know, you can link it in the show notes that people can read it for themselves. The Manhattan Institute put out basically a higher. Red manifesto. And it made me sort of think of the Game of Thrones quote of like, you know, Chaos is a ladder. And while all the things that are playing out that Brendan and Felicia talked about, there are others who are like, yes, and this, this destabilization of higher ed is right where we want higher ed to be to now advance our ideological sort of commitments to what we think higher ed can be and should be, and and again, in plain plain sight. It’s not like they’re hiding anything, just like with Project 2025 the sort of as they’re calling it, the Manhattan statement on higher education is, you know, a pretty clear articulation of of now that the space is destabilized, how then can the sort of next, the next act, so to speak, be played out? And, you know, as we’re seeing, you know, the the Trump administration is very okay with kind of firing people and also kind of placing people who are, you know, very pseudo, pseudo aligned with their particular world view to advance their particular ends, right? We’re just seeing it with, you know, somebody just today announced that the new barrel Labor Statistics, you know, sort of chief economist who will is somebody from the Heritage Foundation. So it’s, you know, it’s not, it’s important that we do not take the sort of statements and the people who signed them as just, you know, kind of hand wavy at them. These are people who, you know, in very short order, could be setting policy. So that’s one, another one that’s kind of behind the scenes, but I think is important, is in Felicia back in the spring, sort of mentioned the fight around accreditation and some of the things that we’ve been seeing. And there’s a really interesting battle playing out right now with nisi Keith, which is basically the arm of the Department of Education that kind of oversees the accreditation and their political appointees that they’ve been confirmed, and they’re supposed to be carrying on their work, and the Trump administration has essentially halted their ability, and they’re trying to run out the clock until they get to October, where there’ll be a new slate of appointees. And so there’s actually, you know, sort of a lawsuit and kind of a legal battle right now saying, like, hey, we have people appointed, we, you know, should be able to carry out our work, and the Trump administration saying no. So there are just also, like, a lot of, like, niche, nitty gritty policy, things that then play into just this kind of bigger disorientation that, you know, is again, you know, as Brendan mentioned, part of the playbook. And then the third and final thing, I think, is, you know, for a long time, people have been saying, hey, you know, scholars need to do a better job getting out of the ivory tower. You know, we need to do a better job. And I think some institutions are finally being like, Oh, okay. Like, we need to get out of the ivory tower. We need to tell our story. And so that is probably only one area that I’m a little bit pleased to see, some institutional resources and investment. It’s a shame that tick took this for people to be like, oh, people don’t just intuitively understand what we do, what higher ed is, how our research shows up in people’s everyday lives. We have to tell our story and compete in the media ecosystem, just like everybody else. But you’re starting to see some campaigns being built in different things that I’ve tried, been trying to track. And I think, you know, with college football season upon us, and some as well. I mean, they have their own problems, but I do think, you know, as as people like to say, like college athletics is the sort of front porch to your institution. And so I think institutions are trying to prepare well for this opportunity to kind of tell and share that story, which I think is important.

Heather Shea
Yeah, you named that. You, all three of you, have named some pretty significant shifts. I think it’s it feels like a lot of turbulence right now that we’re bringing into this kind of present moment. And I should have also named we’re recording this episode on Tuesday, August 12. So by the time you listen, things may have changed, but we are, you know, like a couple of weeks now into August. I mean, the students on our campus is coming back, are coming back next week, and so we think about the start of a new semester, and how that kind of turbulence is going to show up when our campuses are fully populated. I’d love to hear where you’re seeing the most tension right now between values and practice, policy, reality. And I’m also really curious, you know, without students on our campuses, largely? I mean, I know there’s students throughout summer, typically, but without the student population. I’m curious what they are going to be bringing with them as they arrive back or, you know, start classes again this fall. What are they going to be demanding, expecting, resisting. Dimitri, do you want to start us off? Yeah.

Demetri L. Morgan
Keith, yeah, so it’s a great question, and I think about it from kind of two different perspective. One is like, you know, what are students bringing back with them? And, you know, I think there is still, I think students often have a desire at all level, grad students, undergrads, to be able to talk and process like, what is going on in the world. And I think that will continue to happen, but the spaces and places that people go to, there’s going to be a kind of feeling out period of like, oh, you know, like, I used to go to the Multicultural Center, or I used to go and either that’s either there or doesn’t exist or it’s been renamed. Like, what does this look like? So I think there’s going to be some feeling out of, you know, like I want to have these conversations, I want to think with people and be able to talk about things, but where can I do that, and how can I not be surveilled or profiled, and just being able to kind of show up and talk, I think too, there’s increasingly the United a student Tory Keith write a dissertation about the kind of like online social media environment of a campus and the sort of physical environment, and we continue to see Students can have very different experiences in those two environments. And so, you know, I continue to think about what institutions are doing to meet students, where they are, which we talk about in student affairs a lot, and how does that look in a social media environment where you know you have x and you have, you know, other sorts of social media that people are trying to steer clear of. But if students are there, or if the public, you know, conversation is there, what does that look like, and how do we engage students in some of the social media spaces that they’re in? And then the part that I think is also interesting is institutions are also trying to engage in a sort of feeder of being responsive to the critiques. So you’re seeing things like sort of open inquiry requirements that students have, or modules that students are having to take on anti semitism or Islamophobia, these sort of big pronouncements. You saw it in the agreements between Columbia and rumored to be in Harvard as well, of saying, like, all of our first year students are going to do these, these things, and you know, again, to anybody that’s in student affairs, like, you know, sort of common reads or like, Oh, welcome week. Things are, like, pretty common to us. But now those apparatus are being kind of CO opted, to be signal sending to certain policymakers, to certain political parties, of like, Hey, we’re being responsive. We can we can do. And so sort of diversity of thought. So I think students will be in Michigan is rolling out one talking amazing blue and so I think students will be like, What is this like? Why do I have to take this and even if it’s well designed and thoughtful, it’s still like, you know, where is this coming from? Like, my, my, I have a older, you know, sibling who didn’t have to do this. Why am I having to do this? What’s this about? And I think the explanations that we always give don’t draw direct connections between, hey, we’re trying to respond to the sociopolitical environment. Hey, we’re trying to signal that this is a place where everybody can, can can be and can think and can dream, which, not for nothing, has always been the case. But you know, in terms of that narrative, you know you’re seeing institutions be increasingly trying to be adapted to that. And I think students are going to get swept up into that, in ways that feel good and exciting and have cool programs and other ways where students are like, Why are we doing this and not getting good explanations? And so I’m really tracking what that sentiment looks like.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I that’s a really, a really great point. And I think as a parent of a rising junior in college, I am constantly interested in how they’re also messaging their values to parents and family and supporters. So there’s definitely some interesting discussion happening, I think, at the administrative level. So Felicia, I’d love to hear your thoughts on kind of current realities, in particular, how administrators maybe are grappling with some of this. Yeah,

Felecia Commodore
so I try to be very careful about what is I think a number of administrators aren’t sure what to do. I’m just gonna be honest, there’s no playbook for this. Particularly, and so I think what we will see, and we’ve already start to see because of that, is I think we’re going to see far more collaboration and collective leadership. It among university presidents and leaders, because I think they’re trying to bounce ideas off of each other. They’re trying, well, what did you do and what are you doing? And this is what I’m dealing with in my state. That’s what I’m dealing with with my board. I think we’re going to see more that. I think associations like AC ask escu, AAC, you are going to become really important right now, because I think they’re going to be places that university leadership are going to feel some shelter to be able to figure this thing out. Um, I think that two things come to mind. Um, one kind of Dimitri, kind of triggered for me, and it’s probably and I will say these two things kind of make me a little hopeful. And y’all know by now I’m not an optimistic person, but I think history does tell us that moments like this are what student activism is born out of I think we will see a level of student activism that we haven’t seen, and I will say that on both sides of the of the field, I think our more conservative students are going to feel emboldened to kind of Stand up in ways maybe they haven’t. I think our more progressive students are going to feel that they have to stand up. And I think it’s if we look at the past as some of the big student movements in the past that have shaped higher ed i think we’re in one of those moments now. I think students feel like what they’ve been promised has been taken away from them, and they want some control back, or they want their voices to be heard. Now, I think this is going to be interesting because of the ways and some of how campuses have moved to try and quiet or chill student activism. I think that those two coming together is going to be really interesting. I also think we’ve never seen student activism with the amount of technology that we have next, and I that makes it move in ways, and move quicker in ways, and wider and faster in ways than we’ve ever seen, which we saw kind of with some of the pro Palestinian protests, right? Like they were starting to sweep just because people were like, Y’all doing that on your campus? I guess we can do that here too, right? Like, so I do think, and I don’t know if our campuses are prepared for but I think think we’re going to see a level of student activism happen. And in conjunction with that, I think we’re already starting to see it. There have been a moment in higher ed, I think some my student affairs, people can relate to this, where we started to see students lean out of student organizations, lean out of affinity groups, lean out there like I don’t need all of that. I got my my little group chat, I got my I don’t need that. That’s going to shift. I think we’ve taken some of these spaces away that we’re taking for granted, these physical spaces on campus, these majors that people found community in, and I think people are going to want to find safety in those communities again, and so I think we’re going to organically see a shift back to some of what we saw in like the 90s and early 2000s with a real strong lean into black student unions and Latino student groups and things. But I think it’s just going to look a little different than where it won’t be so formalized. Think it’s going to be a lot of organic organizing going on. The second thing I’ll say is, and we’re starting to see it, I think faculty governance is at the top of a lot of faculty’s mind. Share governance, and especially in these states that have now like making it all well, illegal almost, to have faculty senates. I think you’re going to see more faculty organizing, again, maybe not in formalized ways, but in these more organic, off the grid kind of ways. And I’m interested to see how that works within these institutions. But I think having something that we kind of took for granted in a lot of spaces taken away is starting to force a reaction. I mean, think Harvard just decided, like, just vote to have a Senate like they never had one before, which is kind of, I don’t know that. I knew that, but I also imagine they thought they all were all on the same page, like they didn’t need that. And so I think you’re seeing like faculty say, Oh, wait, like we need to have a voice somehow, or wait again, that shelter and that strengthen and protection that is perceived through numbers. So I think you’re going to see more of that on the faculty side, and I think you’re going to see more of that on the student side as well. And the question then becomes, how, what is the institutional reaction to that? History tells us that it usually is not positive, but it does usually result in change. So it’ll be interesting to see what happens.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I think that’s a, I think that’s a really important note to to kind of as a as a hopeful reality, right? Student engagement, student activism. In a previous iteration of the questions for this episode, I was thinking about like, if you had to sit down with the University President right now to talk about some of these issues, what would you say? Brendan, I’m going to toss to you to talk about current realities, and you can pick up that thread or not. What would you tell campus president, maybe not here at MSU, or maybe on a different campus? Yeah,

Brendan Cantwell
well, I don’t know here’s, here’s, here’s, here’s. One thing I’ll say is that no campus president is calling me up, asking me what I think, and I think in part, that is because, well, because I might not have very good advice for them. That’s that’s a possibility. But in the in the more general, less personal sense, I think it’s because campus leaders are in a position, in a sort of closed posture right now. They are adopting a stance where everything that they do is quite quite dangerous for their campus, potentially dangerous for their campus community, for their own careers, and they are trying to Keep, for the most part, their heads down and and sort of business as usual, but actually in a more closed, controlled kind of way. If I were advising campus leaders, I think I would offer two major pieces of advice. I don’t know major, but I would offer two pieces of advice. The first point of advice was their number one job is to maintain cohesion on campus, some sense of community togetherness, and to try to to the best that they can reduce open hostility between different members of the campus community, that if the campus community becomes split, if it, if it rips open that that is going to create a vulnerability for the institution that a bad actor, and there are plenty of bad actors with a lot of power right now might be able to exploit. And I think, you know, in a just descriptive sense, I think the protests at you, the pro Palestinian protests at Columbia and at many, many other universities did actually expose some legitimate difference and hurt feelings by members of the campus, different members of the campus community, and that has that, that feeling of of conflict, maybe hurt feelings, maybe being scared or even feeling threatened. Those feelings that some members of the campus community felt have been really weaponized by the administration, and now it’s just as if, like, it’s a tagline anti semitism, and now we can do whatever we want, and so trying to maintain campus cohesion is a big part of the job right now, presidents have increasingly look outside. This seems like a time when it would make sense for presidents to be looking more and more outside, because the environment is so turbulent, because there are so many demands being placed on them externally. But I do think that this is a time also to look inward quite a bit and work intentionally on cultivating a community that doesn’t have to agree, doesn’t have to always see everything the same way, but can, to some extent, manage its conflicts in ways that don’t rupture into media events. Now I’m not saying students shouldn’t protest. I’m not saying any of that, but what I am saying is that president’s job right now is to try to try to bring, bring the campus community together. That’s the one thing. The second thing is that every campus leader, you know, if you’re at a very prominent university, maybe even more so, but every campus leader should understand that the decisions that they’re making for their campus are decisions in part that they’re making for the entire field that they are negotiating. Initiating and operating with the kind of whole of us, you know, to greater and lesser extent, depending on the decision in the campus and all of those things for the whole of US higher education and its future. And so that the calculations that they have to make about what to do and when should have to include the universities, financial interests, other interests, but they also have to include the interests of higher education and the role of higher education in our economy and in our society, in our in our politics, in our democracy, um, if such a thing exists. And so that’s, that’s, that’s a, that’s a really hard thing I think for presidents to do. I don’t want to be too hard on them, but they’re very interested in their own careers. There’s lots at stake, including big paychecks for them and opportunities for moving to even bigger paychecks and even bigger, higher profile Glitz jobs. And they also are following pretty standard, you know, senses of obligation, fiduciary requirements for their for their institution, that they want to do things that, you know, manage the risk for their campus, make decisions based on the financial interests of their campus, and that those frameworks of risk management and fiduciary obligations may need to be revised in this context. So, yeah, I think those are the two, the two ideas, two pieces of advice I might give

Heather Shea
great. That’s great. Thanks for pitch hitting on that one. I’d love to on our last question. Kind of look ahead now. So we’ve spent some time talking about what’s happened, what’s happening in the moment. And I always like ending on a on a place with a place with a place of hope or somewhat positive. I’m not sure how positive everybody is feeling, but I’d also love to hear how maybe your own thinking has shifted recently around kind of what the current campus context is, what’s keeping you motivated, what’s bringing you joy? What’s even keeping you up at night? Um, Brendan, we’re going to, we’re going to let you kick this one off. Okay, well, that was a lot. I know.

Brendan Cantwell
Things that are making me optimistic are fueling far between, and they come with a lot of caveats. I think we ought to be pretty clear eyed that the situation for higher ed right now is is very, very challenging. The outlook is grim. Couple of things that I’ll point to. One is that the Senate and Senate Republicans do seem far more open to funding research than the House and the administration. I don’t think that that’s actually going to result in much the maintenance of funding or much additional funding in the near term. I think probably the House of Representatives produces a different budget than the Senate. And that the House bill, if I’m just rubbing the crystal ball could be wrong, but the House bill becomes the budget, or something close to it becomes the budget, and even if funding, research funding isn’t slashed in the budget, that the administration just does something like a like, impounds the money, or a pocket rescission and just like, doesn’t spend it anyway, and so, But the reason I find that kind of optimistic is maybe, maybe that indicates that there would be space to rebuild support for for research and maybe other aspects of higher education in the future, right? It may suggest that loyalties to Trump and to his brand of politics override everything at the moment, but maybe if that fever ever passes, Republicans could return to a more even keeled posture about research. I’m grasping at straws here, but that’s one thing that keeps me a little bit optimistic. The other thing that’s related to that that keeps me optimistic is the state of Massachusetts said, announced that it’s going to come up with a with a with a big, but in the grand scheme of things, kind of modest state research fund to fund academic research. I think it’s $400 million sounds like a ton of money. It’s peanuts compared to what the federal government can provide. But I think that this points to the possibility that blue states may with with means, and when they control the the state pretty strongly, and when they have a lot of universities for whom their economy is based, like in the case of Massachusetts, there may be opportunities for blue states to be creative, to kind of work around some of the challenges that that the sector is facing, and I hope that that could, that would pick up some steam, and then other states could think not just about research funding, but also main. Maintaining other aspects of higher education, supporting students right, figuring out ways to do that, and maybe even thinking about statutory or constitutional reforms that would enhance the autonomy of universities, sort of try to build legal firewalls to protect higher education now and in the future. Again, I’m grasping at straws. I’m thinking about little glimmers of hope and ways that we could be creative about this, and then, just personally, what I’m really looking forward to is the weather turning here. We’re all in the Midwest, and it’s been hot and dry, and because you asked this out. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna bring this, and this will be my last, the last thing that I say it because I think that on a college campus, you know, it’s a little bit of a stereotype, the sort of northern and Midwestern campus where it’s a crisp day and the leaves are turning and the students are moving around in their new jackets. You know, I think that that’s a that’s a time, a sort of sensory experience and a ritual that can allow us to all see, or at least allow me to see, remind me of, like, why I love being on a college campus, and how great places these, these, these, you know, campuses can be and that there’s something for us to still hold on to, you know, in the fall. So that’s great.

Heather Shea
That’s very hopeful. I think I’m looking forward to, you know, just the heat breaking, and I feel for all of the parents who are moving and supporters are moving their children onto campus in the next couple of weeks because there lots of residence halls don’t have any air conditioning up here in the Midwest either. Not fun. Dimitri, what? What about you? What kinds of shifts are, what’s keeping you motivated, what’s keeping you up at night? What are some of the things that are feeling a little bit like progress?

Demetri L. Morgan
Yeah, so, just a couple come to mind. One, you know, I think all three of us, Brenda, Felicia and myself, like over the years, have been working and writing on various aspects of governance. You know, Felicia mentioned shared governance earlier. And I do think there is a renewed interest in understanding how universities work, and understanding why universities are not just like nonprofits, and why they’re not just like corporations. And I’m, you know, maybe an internal optimist, that with like more context and understanding and more people using shared language about what is higher ed and how does it work, the better off we’ll be. And part of that, you know, a decade ago, there was, you know, 10 of us that, you know, maybe really loved talking about governance, and increasingly, there’s more and more people. And so I’m I’m heartened by that. I also am heartened by and I think the, I think the strength of the position of the Republican Party President Trump is, is that they do a really good job of defining the problem and then polarizing people around the problem. And I think, you know, the progressive left or whatever, continues to not be in agreement that there are problems in higher ed right. Everybody’s like, oh, they just need to be anti Trump, resist, resist, resist. And it’s like they’re not exploiting, they’re not exploiting or demonizing. They’re they’re defining the problem as, like people are upset with the value proposition of higher ed, and they’re starting from there and then advancing their own aims. And so I’m, I’m heartened by people’s the potential that still exists out there to come back to sort of share problem solving and and create a a new pathway about higher ed that invites people and activates people and gives people reason to hope and dream. But if we continue to engage in the sort of like, you know, anti Trump of it all. It takes us away from saying, like, there’s lots of great things about higher ed, there’s lots of challenges about higher ed. Here is our plan to address the challenges. Here is our plan to advance the good and do that in a coalition, and do that in ways. And so I agree with what has been shared that some of the things that are starting to come into place, whether it’s states, you know, doing research funds, some of the coalitions that we saw formed and maturing, but moving away from just sort of like the anti and the resistance to like. We want to compete in the marketplace of this as well, and we’re starting from the same definition of the. Problem. But here is an alternative to what that looks like, and you’re starting to see some of the seedlings of that and the challenges that takes a long time to define the problem, takes a long time to build. You know, was why project 2025, again, you know, not to hype it up, but it’s why, like some of that thinking and infrastructure building of it was done so that then you just had to implement it. And you’re seeing other groups now try to build that infrastructure and do that deep thinking while also trying to defend. And, you know, for anybody that’s played a sport, it’s really hard to play offense and defense at the same time, yeah, and so, but I think, I think we’re starting to see that, and that gives me hope. And then the last thing is, you know, I’ve mentioned on here before, I have a seven and a three year old, and you know, they just continue to be excited about the life. And so it’s like, okay, well, I need to, I need to try to keep being engaged too, because they, you know, think that you know things you know are going to be great for them, and why shouldn’t they? And so for me, that’s that’s a motivating, you know, sort of thing to kind of keep in engaging in, you know, helping people and supporting, you know, students in those ways. And so that’s always a sort of easy reminder to go to, but one that I think is not unimportant in spaces and so, yeah, those are kind of the things that are kind of keeping me going.

Heather Shea
I love it. I agree. And second your your point about our own children, right? I have a My youngest is a senior in high school this year, rising senior, and I’m thinking all about, like, the next steps, and what college he’s going to go to, and how all of those experiences, you know, kind of shape your identity. And it’s, it’s very exciting moment. Um, Felicia, what about you? You bring us home? What’s, what’s, uh, giving you hope, or feels like progress?

Felecia Commodore
Yeah. So, so So I’m a preface with like, I think the things that I might see as progress may make people feel icky, but hear me out, right? So, um, one I, I, I heard this quote on a podcast. I won’t say podcast, because I don’t Well, I guess I could, it’s public, but I was listening to native land pod and Andrew Gillum, who was legislator in Florida, went for governor and, well, he ran for governor of Florida, but he made this, said, this quote, like, democracy is a contact sport and what? And I think what we’re seeing now is people realizing, like democracy is a contact sport. And one of the things that I often say, or share of students, is that higher ed, for me, from my perspective, is just a microcosm of our what’s going on our larger society. And so I am actually hopeful. What makes me hopeful is that think we’re finally starting to see people understand that democracy is a contact sport, and so I think that will trickle down into higher education. I think leaders and those who participate and believe in the the project of US higher education, are going to realize that if we want it to exist, this is a contact sport. It’s no longer going to be us sitting in our ivory towers. It’s no longer going to be us just hoping administration figures it out, or state legislatures figure it out. We have to get in the battle. And I think we’re learning that now, like, I think, you know, we, we kind of were like, oh, things work themselves out eventually. No, things work themselves out when we work and I think that is what I’m starting to see now. I think we’re seeing more of our shareholders and stakeholders be like, if we believe in this thing, whether it’s your individual institution, whether it’s the concept of higher education overall, then we’re going to have to work and we’re going to have to fight for it, like, this is a contact sport, and we’re going to have to get in the battle. And I think people are starting to step up to the plate. I mean, we’re seeing, I feel like I’ve seen more people be more engaged with, like, what? What are the state legislature saying about higher ed who are people putting on boards of trustees? What is the President’s take on this? Who is the President talking with and lobbying around with? Right? Where are people aligning? And that actually encourages me, because I do think you know to Dimitris point, we try to act like we don’t have problems. Have problems in higher ed. But I do think there was a bit of apathy and comfort for a while, right? Like we, some of us believe this was indestructible, and now we’re kind of getting a wake up call that nothing is indestructible. If people know how it was constructed, you can always decon. Rocket right? And so now we have to say either we believe in this thing or we don’t, and if we do, we’re going to fight for it. So I think that’s one thing. I think another thing that I am hopeful about is that I do feel like we’re starting to see, at least from where I’m at, I’m starting to see an involvement or connection between community and higher education in ways that I remembered when I was growing up, that I had saw fall away, I think particularly in the black communities I’m a part of, I think it’s become very clear there’s an attack, or at least barriers that we thought we had overcome regarding access and being able to reap the benefits of higher education that we rely on, you know, structures and policies to do that, that historically, we did our, you know, our organizations, our churches, our communities. We filled the gaps because there were barriers and policies that kept us from higher education. I think I’m starting to see a return to that, that we can’t rely on people believing in the greater good anymore. So we got to fill the gaps for our own communities, whether that’s through organizations, whether that’s through pulling together funds, whether that’s through collaboration, and I’m starting to see and not just in black communities, but other queer communities, Latino community, Latinx communities, I’m seeing people, even rural communities, like, Okay, we have to get back to pulling it together and figuring how we’re going to help each other, because we can’t rely on the system like we thought we could. And so I’m in track. I’m hopeful about that, because I think there, I think one of the reasons the propaganda of higher education isn’t about the people or it’s just for elitist it’s not something that the regular person should be commit to. I think that that has grown because we lost that connection between community and higher education. And so seeing some of that come back, I think, will be helpful in the long run, when we have to have these fights about why we should be supporting higher education, and then I do, I think because um, funding and resources are shrinking. Um, I think we’re seeing more openness to collaboration and coalition building across the sector, and I think that can only help benefit, particularly for institutions that are under resourced, where, I think for probably the last 15 or so years, those institutions have seen each other as competition, and that they’re all computing for the same students, and so we can only think about ourselves. As Brenda said, I think we’re starting to see an opening up of, if the bottom falls out, how do we all stick together to make sure all of us stay afloat? And I think that that is exciting for me see, because again, I think historically, particularly for like HBCUs and tribal colleges, that’s how we’ve seen them stay afloat. Like the is that coming together and that looking out for each other. And lastly, my scene is coming from some of the things to share summer. I’m just excited people are paying attention to their state legislatures. Because, as we saw like, people started making funny little laws and started having conversations, and so I’ve seen more interest in, what is my state doing about higher education? What are my state saying colleges can or cannot have? What is my representative? What’s my state senator saying? Even seeing what happened in North Carolina, where the the the Senate passed that that bill, and the governor was like, and this is what vetoes are for, right? So, um, I there is, there is a civics nerd in me who is really excited that people are finally seeing it, to Dimitris point, trying to figure out how all this actually works. And I think the more we understand how it works, the more we understand not how to hope it works, but to be proactive. Because what we know right is this chaos is being being put forward to make stuff that. Should work the way it works, not work the way it’s supposed to work. So if we know how it’s supposed to work, we can be proactive and like, this is the thing they’re going to try and unravel. How do we prepare for that unraveling? Um, and I think before we just just kind of knew the wheels moved in a certain way, and something came out at the end, um, but um, in the you know, to to call back to some burn bomb, um, we’ve opened the black box now, right? And we’re gonna, I think I’m excited to see people actually be like, Oh, this is how this works. This may be where we’re heading next. How do we get ahead of that? But it’ll, it’ll, it’ll be interesting. But I think, I think all the things we try to make icky, the the politics of it, all the the lobbying of it, all the getting kind of in the for lack of better words, in the streets, of things that I think some of us have avoided as individuals and as a sector. I think I see the tide changing on that, and I’m really excited, because we do have to is a contact sport, and if we believe in this thing, we’re going to have to fight for it.

Heather Shea
Yeah, yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m thinking of two things. One, I’m thinking of Schoolhouse Rock, right? Like, go back to some of those basic civics lessons, and then to a book that came out, actually, a while ago called what universities owe democracy, which I think has has, at least for me, kind of solidified the inner relationship. And I don’t know that I was thinking about that as as a as a symbiotic before, before picking up that book. Thank you all so much. I’m so grateful for your time today and for all your contributions in spring as well. And we’re going to get Dr crystal Garcia and Dr Oiyon Poon on here, as well as we think a little bit about how we want to continue bringing the information about what’s happening in higher ed and how we can respond to the Student Affairs NOW channel. I also want to send a huge thanks to the Student Affairs NOW host team, especially Rachelle Pope and Keith Edwards, who last week, helped me realize I did not need 10 questions. I only needed three questions. And our awesome producer, Nat Ambrosey, thank you so much for helping make this series possible. As we have discussed, higher ed is shifting very quickly, and these discussions really do matter. We’d love to have you, share your thoughts, post your comments, tag us on Instagram or on blue sky, and we’d love to hear from you. If you have contacts with organizations or entities that would help sustain current campus context, we are looking for a sponsor to support this work, so just email us at host at studentaffairsnow.com and if you haven’t already subscribed, you can get information about every episode coming out on our channel every Wednesday, and you can review all of the past episodes from the current campus context series on our website, student affairs now.com/current-campus-context. Again, I’m Heather. Shea, thanks for listening, and let’s keep the conversation going on our campuses and in our communities.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-will-be-left-of-higher-ed-in-four-years

https://www.universityworldnews.com/post.php?story=20250728103148316

https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/article/exactly-what-is-in-the-ivy-league-deals-with-the-20817260.php