Helena Gardner: Welcome to, here’s the Story, A show that brings student affairs to life by sharing the authentic voices and lived experiences of those who are shaping the field every day. My name is Helena Gardner. My pronouns are she, her, hers, and I served. I have served at multiple institutions for over 20 years, working primarily in housing.

I live my life as a mom, a sister, a daughter, a friend, a mentor, all the things, and I am excited to be here with my co-host Neil.

Neil E. Golemo: Howdy. My name is Dr. Neil Emo, and I’m the luckiest guy I know. I am blessed to serve as the Director of Campus Living and Learning here on Texas a and M’s. Sunny Galveston campus.

Just father, husband, son over here, trying to do my best to do a little good or at least get caught trying. And JT,

Lionel Maten: y’all, I’m so excited. All three of us are together.

Pronouns are he, him, his and I serve as the associate professor and chair of educational leadership at Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville. And y’all know, I’m just trying my best to live as a free black man in a world that would have me live otherwise.

Helena Gardner: I am going to do a shout out to our sponsor today.

Evolve. Evolve is a series of leadership coaching journeys designed to bring clarity, capacity, and confidence, empowering courageous leadership to reimagine the future of higher education. I am just gonna name right now during this recording that my connection is spotty. So hopefully we make it through this wonderful recording smoothly.

But I can tell over here I’m struggling with my connection. So if you all lose me. We will find a way to get back together. But for now, I want to welcome to the show. How authentic is that? I wanna welcome to the show someone that serves as a mentor for me, and I use lowercase because mentors I think have to, you gotta have permission.

And so I know I’ve never had that type of conversation with my good friend Lionel Maton here. But over the course of my journey, we, milo has just stayed connected and committed to helping me figure things out in this field. And sometimes those things are figuring myself out. And so I am so very excited to spend some time dwelling with learning from one of what I would say is the best to ever do it out in these streets.

What does he say? Someone who is cooler than the other side of the pillow.

Lionel Maten: I like that. Come on.

Helena Gardner: I only met one other person in life who says that, and every time they say it I say to myself, but you’re not Lionel though. But you’re not Lionel. On that note, I wanna welcome to our podcast today, Lionel Ma, and please introduce us in the ways that you would like us to know you.

All

Lionel Maten: right. Good afternoon, morning, evening, whenever you’re you get an opportunity to to review this. But I am Lionel Maiden. I currently serve at the University of Mississippi in the role of of assistant Vice Chancellor for enrollment management. I guess my experience has have been at small institutions, have been regional institutions as well as large public institutions.

Majority of my career has been in student housing with the last, 13 years part sharing the role as director of housing and responsibility for enrollment management to, to now being exclusively focused in enrollment management. So looking forward to the conversation today and hopefully I could say something that could be benefi beneficial to the listeners.

Helena Gardner: Thank you. Thank you. I know you got a story to tell. So let’s hear that

Lionel Maten: story. Alright. The I guess my, my career really and truly, I was introduced to the student affairs really. Do a complaint. I was an athlete at a little small institution at the University of Arkansas at Monticello.

The, I was a track athlete. We shared the floors shared the floor rather with the baseball team. The track team had one half, the baseball team had the other. And although we were, not in season. We were still training. Baseball team was not in season. They were a little loud. And I went down and complained to Mr.

Charles Jackson. The he was from Canada about the complaints. He didn’t have an RA on that floor and told me come to his office the next day. I actually came to his office and he, he actually handed me an application. And so that was really how I was introduced to to the the world of student affairs.

And so I began serving as a, as a ra for for the athletes on that floor, and continued throughout that experience. And at, on that campus, you had a position of head ra? The so I became a head RA and for getting graduation, I was actually headed, headed off to A-Y-M-C-A or something of that nature.

That was my interest. I had been an athlete and although I wasn’t interested in coaching, I was interested in health and wellness and those type of things, and had done some work with that. And it was our direct, our director of, res life and housing at the time knew that there was a vacancy that they could not fill at Murray State.

So she convinced me to to, the interview at Murray State, and I tried to use the excuse to get out of it, having problems saying no the and so I said I don’t, I can’t afford to drive to the interview. We were in Arkansas and the interview’s gonna be in Murray, Kentucky.

She said, I’ll drive you. The and so she actually drove me to to my interview at Murray State. Got the job there. The, and work. Got a chance to work under the Paula Helic at the time, who was very active in Siho who exposed me to work beyond just the campus, but work within the profession.

And how could we as, as individuals really impact and help to shape our profession. The and so really and truly for me, as I think about my career it’s. It’s always been those situations in which someone has lended out a hand, someone has opened a door, someone has someone has been a sponsor.

The and for me that sponsorship continued even beyond graduate school. I went back to my undergrad to to work as a professional hall director. And, and. From there, there used to be a sea hole used to partner and have a job search process in Atlanta. And I met a woman by the name of Lorena Re Hut.

At the time she was director of housing at University of Southern, miss. And I had interviewed at the University of Georgia and they were very interested in me. The but when I went to campus. The then director there made a joke that I was gonna, he said, look out my window there. He says one of the responsibilities you would have is you would clean a, you would have to clean a pool if the pool person didn’t show up.

And he meant that as a joke. He really was joking and really and truly, if you got to know him it was just him joking and sincere and all of those things. But as a young professional. You know what I thought? I am not going there because I am not cleaning nobody’s pool. The and there and so the next day I went, to interview on campus at Southern Miss with nda the and and ended up taking the job. He ended up asking me later, he said, Hey why did you take the job? And I told him that he just laughed. He thought that was, we’ve got laughs about that over the years. The and it was really served through his retirement as really a strong mentor for me.

It was someone that really and truly, we, I still benefited from, I benefited from his leadership and all of those different things. The I guess it was a lesson learned at for both of us in that situation the but from, there went to Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania the was able to get that position because there were so many people who had turned it down.

So you can say that I was the fluky on that one. The everybody had said no, and I was willing to say yes. The and the and really learned a lot about the business and, financial side of the operation. A large part of my role there was I was removed from the student affairs side, so to speak.

More operations driven, so marketing parking, dining, those type of operations. The really enjoyed that experience and enjoyed Pittsburgh and as a city those type of things. Had an opportunity to leave there and to go work for my my mentor Shannon Staton at the University of Louisville who had told me, she said, Hey.

I’m gonna give you three years. I’m gonna teach you how to be an Associate Director of Facilities. But my you only got three years and you are going to have to move on and be, and prepare yourself to become a director in those three years. And she mentored me. I got the best mentoring I could have ever gotten over those three years, but year two, I walked in her office from my evaluation and she said what’s your plan for next year?

I said I’m staying here. We’re, we were enjoyed we were enjoyed Louisville, Kentucky. I had no idea I would love it that much. And she says I told you three years. You got three years. Start looking, for your career. I’m gonna help you out. I’ll, help you to find opportunities and those things.

But I don’t think that your service will be, you’ll be a better servant in a role as a director. And so I, that’s where I want you to be. That’s what I’m aiming you to be. And if you were in housing at that time, you understood that you had some of these term limits on certain campuses.

At practice, I don’t believe exist as much. If it exists at all within the profession now the and I had an opportunity and do my connections. Willie Young, who was at Ohio State knew that Eleanor Reynolds was retiring and looking for a director at Oakland University. So I had an opportunity to go there and interview us where I met Helena.

The and and was a part of her hiring and those type of things. And so really and truly got an opportunity there to be to be a director for the first time. And went on from there and moved down to Texas San Antonio. And now here six months into the job, I was asked to chair a committee to look at.

Restructuring student affairs and the for my boss at that time and shortly after that was asked to help her manage our enrollment management at the time, financial aid and admissions and everything is, where is that today? Have, working for a phenomenal leader, who’s known in enrollment management by the name of Ed Eduardo Pieto. And it’s been very exciting to, to work under his leadership and learn this profession that I’ve learned over the last 13 years. So there it is.

Helena Gardner: That’s a that’s a story. That’s a story. And one of the things I remember from you that I’m.

Lionel Maten: Oh no.

Helena Gardner: Yep. I lost it.

Lionel Maten: We lost you for a second. We can still hear you. Can you hear

Helena Gardner: me?

Lionel Maten: You can’t hear you. Yeah.

Helena Gardner: Yeah. Like the whole screen went black and it’s not back on yet, so

Lionel Maten: Yeah. Yeah, we can hear

Helena Gardner: you. That’s a good place. I’m trying to get it back up. Is it still recording though?

Lionel Maten: Yeah. Yeah. We’re still recording so you’re good.

Helena Gardner: But you can’t see me.

Lionel Maten: We see your beautiful headshot. Yeah, that is a fabulous headshot, by the way. That’s great. That one

Helena Gardner: I used to have purple hair, so thank you. I’m ha it’s not popping back up. So how about so Nat, you will know that we are gonna cut this part. It did have ended at RHS story and come back.

I don’t wanna move my laptop. Let me see if I switch it to the laptop, if it will.

Lionel Maten: Yeah, I said we could, we could hear you.

Helena Gardner: Let’s see. Cancel that. Then maybe you come back. You see me yet?

Lionel Maten: Not yet.

Helena Gardner: Oh. Somehow it turned the video off. Oh, you coming there? Y’all coming back? All right, there you go.

All right, so we’re gonna start here? Yep. Thank you. Thank you folks. Lena, one of the things that I remember hearing from you and I hold as wisdom and have still yet to experience, so let me just say that is I remember you saying, I don’t know if you remember it, one of the greatest things to do is to be acknowledged by someone and tapped.

For a job. One of the you wanna move your career to a place that somebody reaches out, taps you and says, I want you over here. And a lot of what I do and how I like work to build relationships has been until that day comes right? I know I’m valuable out in these streets, so please don’t hear me say I’m a low value like, professional out here.

But I haven’t had that experience. But in listening to your story I think for the first time for me is really knowing how that has been your journey. Can you talk to us a little bit about, I don’t know how that makes you feel, or even if that one of the greatest things is to be tapped, is still something, if you recall it, that you consider to be an important part of this professional journey?

Lionel Maten: Yep. I do value the relationships that I’ve had in this profession. I, I credit some of that when I think internally to me being consistent and always showing up and showing up in a way and in the space that, oftentimes can be a little tough. When you’re, when you’re the only.

Person that’s entering that space as a person of color. The you are, a lot of times I went through the profession really seeking guidance. Not because I was being treated one way or the other in any way that was of concern, but I wanted to make sure as I was entering those spaces and places that I, that I was doing it the right way. I, coming from the environment that I came from where my family, was not, I couldn’t call home and say, I remember a story or one time calling home and saying to one of my uncles, a concern that I had in the job.

And he said, just quit. And that was his response. And he, he was, he thought he was really giving me sage advice at that time. But in his world and those type of things, that may have been the way in which, those things would’ve been resolved. But in a, higher education world and those type of things, you have approached the work from a different perspective and the and so I didn’t have necessarily have that growing up in the environment I grew up in.

But I had and so for me, Willie Young, who you know again at Ohio State. Became that one African American mentor for me who I was able to call on and lean on for that way. And, but I also had Ker hut and Shannon Sta and two who were two Caucasian women who served in that role and, and all that.

They couldn’t tell me how necessarily to be a person of color. They had worked with a lot of in the promotional, a lot of people of color and those types of things. And so they really did help and guide and help me to steer my career and challenge me in ways I needed to be challenged and those types of things.

And for me the tap has come with they talk about your circle of five. You take the five people in your circle and you could tell you how you could pretty much determine the outcome of your career and those type of things. I’ve just been very. Fortunate to have that.

I’ve tried to pay that back to the profession in every way that I could. I’ve also been very sensitive find myself probably on a weekly basis talking to two to three young men of color in the profession who are just going through different things and those type of things because I feel like I didn’t have that.

And so I do want to contribute back to the profession in that way, and that’s beautiful. I’m curious how you think the profession has advanced in terms or maybe it hasn’t. I’m curious to get your opinion. Yeah. In terms of race, in, in terms of race relations within our field I asked the question specifically in a moment where we see the rise of white Christian nationalism.

There’s an agenda from conservative forces to say, we need to go back. America needs to go back and I’m just curious, where would you say our field is in terms of what you’ve seen over the course of your career? I, yeah, and I can only speak from the place of my experience and the profe and the which served as the national organization that I’ve had the privilege of working with the and I could, speak from the leadership that I’ve had since I, I’ve been here at the University of Mississippi, the and so as a career, perspective, again, I’ve had various people who’ve stepped up and really tapped and served as sponsors for me. A lot of times those individuals did not look like me. The I come from a place of my, I was sharing with a young man at the nacac, which is the National Association for Enrollment Managers Conference last week.

It is hard for me because I come from a place in which my mother could have used and she could have called the race card on on, on someone. On a lady who tried to ruin her family because she wouldn’t serve her years ago. And I remember being very upset about that. And she told me, she said, I can’t get mad at the race.

She said, really? And true. My conflict is between me and her. And so my entire career has been based upon that. Moment that I sometimes say was a moment of embarrassment for me. ’cause I expected a different response, and the and her response wasn’t about, imposing, a situation that she had with an individual on an entire, on an entire race of people.

And so I always. Pull from that. I always go from that. It set who I am as a professional. And so I’ve been very fortunate in the sense that, again, some of that may be the circle of influence that I’ve had in the profession but I’ve always felt like a coho eyes has shown up for.

For, people of color. I feel like they’ve shown up for our, L-G-B-T-Q community. I feel like Aku Hawaii has really been in Aku, Hawaii as the National Organization for Housing Professionals. The and I’ve always. Felt as though there’s always been a space, there’s always been a place there.

It’s been an organization willing to listen. It’s been an organization willing to develop. It’s been an organization willing to grow as professionals and all of those different pieces, and that’s been my experience. I’m not sure what the experience has been in other associations and organizations, but my, my foundation.

Everything that I’ve been able to do in this profession has come out of and birthed out of a eye. The and so for me, that has always been a very special place in my heart. And I, and again, I feel like I’ve grown, I’ve seen other men and women of color who’ve had the opportunity to be successful as well.

And then it comes to the University of Mississippi. I’ve had some great leaders I really have and whether it was Brandon Heman Little Bank who, took a chance on me as a director of housing to move into a role as the assistant vice Chancellor of, and have responsibility for, you think about the front door of university the and, enrollment management, and she took a chance on me and said, Hey, I need you to take on this area the, and from day one I was wrapped around with love and support and those type of things. I’m one who will ask, am I doing well? Am I, I’m not doing well. And those things, and people have been honest and I think they’ve given me, really good, honest feedback that I could grow from I, every chancellor, I’ve had an opportunity to work from. Some are closer than others. The our current chancellor has been phenomenal. He allowed me to write the job distri, the job description, a proposal to. To create the division of enrollment management.

Those are just not everyday experiences. And so for me to somehow say that, that I have not been given the support and the things, and that was challenging. I was, it was at a time when I was coming off the doctorate and I. I always called it the doctoral illness.

I was sick as all get out. I barely get outta bed. But I found a way to write that proposal because I felt like the opportunity to do was phenomenal. And so for me it’s a little different. I’m, and it’s hard because I. I tend to approach and there’s a different lens I find myself looking through as it relates to when folks ask me similar questions, and it’s because my experience has been different.

I’ve been, again I haven’t been on a global stage. I don’t understand, maybe some of the things that are happening on the global stage. I tend to focus on those things that I can change and I can affect and I can make a difference in, and in that arena, I feel like, whether it is been the University of Mississippi or whether it’s been uni, universal, Arkansas in Monticello, I’ve always had, very strong s.

Support networks and those type of things. And so I’m not saying that there hasn’t been tough days that would not be fair. But in my experience, I’ve always had I’ve always been able to look back and find that those experiences have grown me and helped me and those type of things.

And again, I understand, the space I’m in as a, being at a flagship institution as the Assistant Vice Chancellor of Enrollment Management, I know there’s gonna be a different level of treatment that may come to me, that may come to someone else, whether that’s through our university or whether that’s just out in the public in general.

But that’s been my experience. And I, I wish, again, I, that and so I’m just sharing it through the lens in which I’ve seen it.

Neil E. Golemo: Oh, I

Lionel Maten: appreciate it.

Neil E. Golemo: I was gonna make a joke earlier about how like somebody like Helena is partially your fault. And but I can tell you from my standpoint if that’s all you ever did, you had a great career.

I was struck early on, we were talking about mentorship, but you used the word sponsor. And I know why that speaks to me, but I’m just curious that was definitely a choice by you and I wanna talk to me about that. Why’d you use that word?

Lionel Maten: ‘Cause partly ’cause I just finished talking to my son about that probably about an hour or so ago.

The he’s he’s in college in Iowa and so wanted to play basketball, run track. So he decided that he fell in love with a little small school in Iowa as we went out and did our visits and things during his senior year, his junior year. And the, and he went through some tough periods in that process because as I explained to him, myself being a college athlete as well, is that, those first two years of your learning period, you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna necessarily be the superstar you was in high school.

The and although you had those conversations with him, that’s, it’s, he still gotta go through the journey, and the and so he definitely went through that and, had some, he had some really tough decisions to make this summer as to whether or not he was one, gonna go back two, whether or not he was gonna participate in sports or just focus on his academics and leadership and those things, and and decided that he wanted to continue.

He actually felt like he wanted to. Father as a leader. And his institution which is hopefully I can say the name is is warper College. The they actually, the athletic director there and the basketball coach actually provided him an opportunity to to represent the school at their na, at their at their student leadership conference for their conference about two weeks ago.

And the and and he’s he’s really has, and he really did enjoy that experience and has shared with me that he wants to work in enrollment management and those things. And so our, my boss has been very. Candidate that he wants to help him to grow in the field and those type of things.

And so I was sharing with him about sponsors and to me those are people who are setting at tables and they’re calling up your name when you don’t even know your name’s being called. And so I was, talking to him about that, that had, you went in there and you said to the coach and the athletic director, Hey, I’m leaving the program.

You would’ve never gotten this experience because you know what you was focused on was what? What you could see. And you was not, and you was not focused on the fact that, that people were still watching you. People were still, making they saw you in the gym and no one else was in the gym.

They saw your leadership but you, but there’s a process that you needed to go through. And because they saw those things, they felt great being able to say that we’re willing to invest. Part of our career and what we’ve learned and we’re willing to put forth some of our collateral onto you, and that’s what sponsorship means to me, is how can we, how can I take the experience that I’ve had and be able to sponsor someone else?

And when you’re sponsored, how can you make sure that it’s paid back to me? Not in financial means or anything of that nature, but you go and do what you need to do and you do the things as well as you can do them. And that’s, and so I was spending time talking to him about that and how he needed to, how he needed to close the loop now, how he needed to work with them to make sure that, there may have been a ton of students who’ve gone before him, but how do you, I’m from Louisiana, so how do you add some, how do you add something extra? And so he put together a presentation and sent that to them and thanked them and just told ’em what he learned and those types of things. And so that’s when I think of sponsor, I think of those individuals who are sitting at the table who may, you may never know.

Have spoken your name who, who are able to move your career and your journey forward. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Helena Gardner: Thank you for sharing that. And it similarly. I try to help my son also recognize when the sponsors are around, and that is for me, while I say like little M and not Big M because it’s not that ongoing type relationship.

But I’ve always appreciated the nuggets that you have poured into me. And again, similarly I try to teach my son, like when you find a person who’s invested in you, because although I’ve not been tapped to Hey, come do this special thing, I have had opportunities. Where people have tapped me to tell me what was special about me.

That’s right. And who could see where I couldn’t see, and I have learned to trust that. And people, so similarly I’ve been teaching my son how to maybe not be a follower, but when you trust in some people, how do you follow it? And in a way that, I’ll just take it back to when you said maybe your uncle had learned how to manage.

Different things differently. I say to my son where you’re moving and where you’re going and how you do it, I’ve never seen before. So when you have people who can see it and they can walk you through a world that I’ve never walked my shoes in, then you, I gotta help you trust them. That’s right.

Because I don’t. I don’t know about that world. I don’t know how that moves over there. I can, mama could take you somewhere, but mama can’t take you, all the way. So I just, I appreciate you saying that. I really have chills thinking about that, especially when we think about our babies.

Yeah, and just the journey. So like with that. With that being said I really thank you for being in a space with us today.

Lionel Maten: Yes, thank you.

Helena Gardner: There’s not been one time I haven’t learned something and I appreciate you taking us on your journey. Name dropping, ’cause that’s like you, you dropped some housing culture names, right?

Like you’ve had a journey to be influenced by some folks who’ve been really significant to the field. Just that journey alone, reinforcing that we don’t do this alone and to be really cheesy with it. That’s kinda where this idea of, here’s the story comes from is how do we sit with each other and have opportunities to learn from our experiences.

And all of our experiences just look different. And so as we continue to do this work in a time that. It’s just unstable and sometimes unkind and evolving all at the same time. Having these lessons and reminders are gifts. And I don’t know, y’all, I think an untapped gift is really thinking about how you got here and really recognizing that, and then appreciating what you do when you’re here.

And that’s what I heard Yeah. From you today.

Lionel Maten: Yeah. He can I just say Yeah. Really quickly. It is beautiful to see you and your mentor together just before we started recording the energy between y’all, the love. I know the viewers can’t feel that, but I just love again is I feel it and I felt it and it’s beautiful.

Helena Gardner: You know what? I’m gonna take a liberty of some extra time. Why am I getting emotional? There was one time I applied for a job while I was reporting to Lionel and he didn’t hire me. This is what I want y’all to know. He did not hire me, but the conversation he had with me about if I cry, we gonna get an Emmy for this episode about where I was.

And in case you wondered, I wasn’t in a bad spot. Let me just boost my ego, what he was looking for and where he is going, where he was going with the direction of what was needed at the institution At that time, challenged my ego in a way that I, you probably don’t know this lineup. I completely look at my, myself as a candidate differently.

I still maintained I was the best person that he shoulda hired

Lionel Maten: it.

Helena Gardner: And is still, and though what was interesting in this pool, y’all, and this gotta be on the recording, is that the other candidates were people that I had taken the RA journey with literally, actually. And factually I learned to love this work with those same candidates and I was just not the one he chose.

And what I think is. Awesome for me in this. So jt, thank you for pulling this out, is that I am almost positive. I haven’t made a professional move without checking in to see what I was doing, where I was at, what the thoughts were, what’s moving in the field. And I may have moved a lot, but in the times that I have checked in, there’s always been that same honest conversation back about what the landscape was.

How I might need to be prepared to play and the things I need to think about when I make that decision. And I just wanna say back in, in front of y’all and Lionel is that when I sit with the person who’s doing a job search, I try to make it my business to do a similar framing of what are you going for and what are you looking for?

Because the compensation isn’t always in the money. Yep. Like it’s sometimes in other ways. Similarly, if I am not able to bring someone along and know that I’m offering them disappointment, I take that time to help them see who they are. Because a lot of times when we are rejected, we think about who we aren’t.

And I’m not saying it didn’t hurt, but I have framed almost every single search and decision based on the conversation we had in our office. Moving forward. And so it matters to me because I knew, or at least I thought it wasn’t about me, but to make it about me, I had to do some different things, right?

Like I just had to do some different things because the tone of what was needed was not in my skillset. I promise you today, you’re not gonna find too many things, not

Neil E. Golemo: a part of

Helena Gardner: my skillset. Because, it’s a great philosopher too out there. ’cause they all say it differently. If you stay ready, you don’t have to get ready.

And so again, while I have yet to be tapped, I know that the big one is gonna be a tap because I continue to build that portfolio because that’s what I learned from Lino and I

Lionel Maten: And the reality is that you may have been tapped and not even though you’ve been tapped. That’s the reality. That’s just what’s so important about that.

The yeah. I I, over, over the course of my career, I’ve learned more in the positions that I didn’t get when the the person who did not hire me was willing to have a conversation. I know we live in a, world now where everybody’s afraid to have conversations, which if ’cause of lawsuits and those types of things.

But but in places in which I’ve had an opportunity to really sit down and talk to folks, it’s been interesting because now it’s hard because, when I don’t get a position now it’s man, I check every box. That’s not a box that, I’ve done all the student affairs, I’ve done the enrollment management.

There’s not a whole lot else that’s left out there. The but, but there may be specific reasons why an institution may have an interest in a different candidate and those type of things. And that was that was, it was hard to hear that in some ways because, you.

You have to go back and reflect upon those tough decisions and choices you had to make and why you made them and those type of things. But also it was a moment which I felt like the teacher became a student the and to know that, that interaction with you has helped to shape.

Aspects of your career and very significant aspects of your career. I can tell you that when I talk about the Shannon Stadiums and Loren Hutt and those people I’ve mentioned previously I’ve had to have those conversations with them. And I arrived in that space with you because. I sat in that space with them in which they had to tell me those things.

The and and that’s, I think that’s what our housing profession is good at. I really, truly do. And the, I was asked this week at last week rather at the NAC Act by this young man. He really just came up to me and we started talking and he and the and we’re having lunch.

And so he got into some of his challenges in enrollment management and I kinda gave him my career and he asked what was different about the conference. And I said, it’s. Maybe we all just experience, different, similar things when it comes to enrollment management. Not enrollment, but housing, I said, but it’s more cordial.

People are willing to be transparent. They’re willing to be honest and open, and I think that. Wilderness is what has really helped to shape us. That’s that’s always has been different. Whereas enrollment management, it is a field in which you’re in constant competition with each other.

And so I think they try, I think the profession tries to reach out and help one another. One example is I’m putting on the training for the state of Mississippi enrollment managers. We’re only gonna go so far. We’re not gonna share what we believe are the secrets of our work.

The but they’re so it’s a little, and it may not be any secret whatsoever, but we believe they are. And so the and so that’s the challenge. And the and so for me, it was good to hear that. I needed to hear that today. The the because, looking and trying to make sure as I near, the retirement of my career, the day being my 56th birthday the it’s not too much longer before, before I’m exiting the stage, right?

The and so the and so I want to make sure that not only am I leaving a career in which I’m teaching folks, how to. To, navigate the space and higher education, but for them also to know that they have a duty and responsibility to give back to the profession is something that’s critically important to me.

Helena Gardner: Thank you for that. And on that note, friends, I’m gonna take us out. I’m gonna go ahead and take us out. Let’s give another shout out to Evol. Higher education is facing unprecedented challenges. Higher education needs. Courageous leadership now more than ever, and poor leadership has never been more costly.

A new generation of leaders with a capacity to lead forward is not optional. It’s urgent. These challenges are also full of possibilities for courageous leaders who are able to let go and move forward, accepting the challenges we are facing as real and embracing their agency to lead with and through them.

At Evolve, they help leaders face these realities with clarity, capacity, and confidence. They offer leadership coaching. Coaching journeys for leadership teams and individual leaders focus on executive leaders, emerging executive, emerging leaders. Leaders, sorry, and those leading for equity. This has been, here’s the story.

Thank you for going a little bit longer with us on this episode. Thank you for entertaining my own journey. With a very long time friend. I like to call him a friend if I need him. He’s always there. And if you’ve got a story to tell, we welcome that story. You can check us out at student affairs now slash here’s the story.

Drop us a note, reach out to us directly. If you know us, we are here doing this work one day at a time in the ways that we know how to just normalize this experience for us. And, I don’t know, as evolve says in somewhat challenging times. Thank you to my co-host. Thank you to Lionel Maton, and we will cut you on the next episode of, here’s the story.

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