Glenn DeGuzman: Hello, and welcome to another episode of student affairs. Now, my name is Glenn DeGuzman. I use he him pronouns and I am your host for today’s episode, where I have the honor to chat it up one-on-one with my special guest about her recently released documentary Daughter, Sister, Mother, which follows the real life story of Shaky Estrada, who lives in Mexico. And it chronicles her life journey to becoming a transgender woman, in that country. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in, alongside, or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. Our mission is to have our conversations make contributions to the field of student affairs and our restorative to our profession. We release episodes every Wednesday, every week, Wednesday, and you can find us studentaffairsnow.com. We’re also on Twitter and Instagram. And so let’s get started again. Glenn DeGuzman: My name is Glenn DeGuzman and I’m hosting this from Livermore, California, the ancestral Homeland of the Ohlone people. And we are recording this episode around national coming out day, which was on October 11th. And it’s an opportunity for us to celebrate those coming out as LGBT and and just really sending love energy and strength to those who have not also come out. We’re also at the tail end of LatinX Heritage Month, which ran from the 15th of September to October 15th. And that’s really us celebrating the cultures and contributions of our LatinX communities around the globe, which is a perfect segue to my guest professor Teresa Delfin, filmmaker of “Daughter, Sister, Mother.” Welcome to the show. Teresa Delfin : Thank you so much for having me Glenn. Glenn DeGuzman: Teresa. And I know you go by T as well. If we can start, if you can introduce yourself more fully and, and maybe talk about the professional roles and speak more about maybe your work, your scholarship and your research. Teresa Delfin : Sure, absolutely. So again, I’m Teresa Delfin. My pronouns are she her hers? You can call me T if that’s easier for you or anybody else. So I am a professor at Cal Poly Pomona where I’m an anthropologist. I’m a cultural anthropologist. So I, don’t do any digging. I prefer my people alive. I’m an extroverted anthropologist. I come to trained at Stanford for my PhD, UC Berkeley for a master’s before that and the Evergreen State College for my undergrad. And I’m a filmmaker and researcher and storyteller, and this documentary I think brings together all of my strengths. Also, I’m a native Spanish speaker and this, the film is in Spanish with English subtitles. Speaker 1: That’s wonderful. And it’s cool to see that you have a Berkeley, UC Berkeley background go go bears. That’s my home institution, but it’s interesting. You also went to Stanford. Hmmmm. Teresa Delfin : I am a house divided unto myself. Yes. Speaker 1: So this documentary “Daughter, Sister, Mother” is getting attention across the U.S. I know you screened it recently at Emory University and also did a Q and A workshop on the various themes. If you can, if you can start just giving the audience, what is this film about? Give me the IDMB storyline. Teresa Delfin : Perfect. So this is a documentary short, that was about two and a half years in the making. I should say that it is this is part of a longer work in progress. So I am still following my amazing subject around with a camera, every chance I get. But this particular cut of, of the story is, is called Daughter, Sister, Mother, because it reflects a through line that came you know, they came through to me about two and a half years into filming where so, those of you who have ever made documentaries know that sometimes the way that one approaches a documentary is that you see a glimmer of a story and you have blind faith that a through line is going to emerge. Right? And so I knew that my amazing subject Shaky was absolutely worthy of a documentary. And so I started following her around, but it wasn’t until I met various members of her family and saw the role that she played as a trans woman within a family that is mostly a matriarchy that the through line really the storyline announced itself to me. And so this is the story of Shaky, not only navigating her transition in rural Mexico, but more so it’s the story of how she comes into her own in all of these roles, daughter, sister, and mother. Speaker 1: Hmm. So now, now I’m more curious, how did you get connected to Shaky and, and a followup to that is what motivated you to explore this specific story? Speaker 2: Right. so Shaky lives on the west coast of Mexico. She lives in Marguerite and for those who’ve ever vacationed in Mexico, this where she lives is really close to Puerto Vallarta, it’s about an hour away. So I’ve been doing research in Puerto Vallarta for a long time. I do research on the LGBTQ community there. So there’s a sizable LGBTQ community. And the work that I was doing was really focusing on this tiny neighborhood about 10 blocks by 10 blocks. And and you know, working on sort of, you know, figuring out the story of the neighborhood and telling the story. And I kept meeting people who asked me if I knew Shaky and, you know, and so then I’d say, Oh, who is Shaky? And Oh, right. This person. And it turned out that Shaky lived a full hour, right. As I mentioned. And so Puerto Vallarta is a city, Shaky lives in this rural area, but as I became more known to people in the community, and I became their official anthropologist a couple of years ago too more and more people mentioned her to me. Teresa Delfin : And so, even though I was only doing the work on this tiny neighborhood, I finally decided, okay, there’s a reason that everybody keeps mentioning her to me. And I also, I used to make documentaries. I hadn’t picked up the camera for awhile. I had been tempted to. And so I didn’t want to break with the written project, which was about the neighborhood. So I decided this was a good time to dust off the camera and go have a meeting with her. And so after a bunch of prodding from lots of different people in the community I got in touch with Shaky. She had also been hearing about me for a long time. And so I asked if it would be okay if I went over to visit her sort of, sight-unseen almost like a blind date, non-romantic blind date. And I asked her if it was okay if I brought a camera along and equipment, and if I just recorded our first meeting and went from there and it turned out that we had really great chemistry as filmmaker and star, basically as subject. And that was the beginning. And we’ve been doing it ever since. And it’s been a few years now. Glenn DeGuzman: And, and so I, I heard that, you know, this is, this is two and a half years in the making and it’s, and it’s continuing right? Teresa Delfin : It is a little in the way. Normally I’m in Mexico twice a year, but I haven’t been there since December. So I’m, I’m off of my normal schedule as we all are. Yeah. Glenn DeGuzman: Completely understand that. So, so as a viewer it truly is a coming to age story about family is how I’ve picked up on it. But when I put on my student affairs hat, when I kind of look at it through that optics or lens, this short documentary is really, it’s really filled with many pertinent issues. That’s relevant to student affairs. And I think that’s what really got me really curious about and wanting to speak to you about this. Can you, illuminate on some of these themes that you think are relevant to us? Teresa Delfin : Sure. Well, and I think that we can talk about student affairs, how it connects from sort of two angles, right. So I think we can talk about how the film and the themes in the film speak to student affairs, but we can also talk about the way that the film is received on campuses and how student affairs has used the film as a vehicle for lots of different kinds of discussion. So what is there one you’d like me to hit more than the other, or talk about both? Glenn DeGuzman: The latter would be wonderful. So how does it, how does it resonate and use it as the vehicle for conversation about key themes? Teresa Delfin : Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I think the film does really well is that it gives people a, a real role model. So Shaky is Shaky is magnificent. Shaky is just a really radiant human being who is completely comfortable in her skin. She is the best truly. I’ve encountered a lot of people who are in positions to tell their stories in the work that I do. And I’ve never met anybody. Who’s a better narrator of their own story than Shaky is she is super poised, super self aware. And so so the story that Shaky tells it really provides a model for a lot of people, a lot of LatinX people, I think in particular who lack that sort of a role model. And one of the things that I have found definitely in my role as a professor is I have seen a lot of my own people, my LatinX people right, fellow Mexicans, who if their families say their, say their parents are the ones who immigrated or their grandparents or their great grandparents. Teresa Delfin : Right. A lot of times what they end up holding onto in the household is this idea of Mexico as it was when they left. Right? And sometimes the things that really stand out to them are the aspects of the culture that made them want to leave in the first place. Right? So sometimes the people who really promote for example, Mexico’s machismo, right? And Mexico’s misogyny and Mexico’s transphobia or homophobia are Mexicans themselves. And sometimes the people who really narrate that script are the people who that script works most against. Right? And so so I’ve had a lot of LGBTQ students who are of Latin American ancestry, who for example, are really afraid of coming out because their understanding of Latin America is as a Latin America that is intolerant to that. But they’re also bringing with them this idea of Latin America that might be 50 or a hundred years old. Teresa Delfin : Right? And also, you know, as I tell my students, right?, Mexico has over 300 languages. Every language represents a different little pocket of culture. Right? And so if you try to tell me that Mexico is one way I will tell you, well, are you, you know, you might be talking about Michoacan, you might be talking about Marguerite. You might talking about Jalisco, but don’t put them all in the same, in the same bubble. Right? So the, the Shaky story, I think, is really good for showing people that even in rural Mexico, right, the people have really moved on with the way they think. And not every part of Mexico is the same as another. So in terms of Student Affairs, I think it I think it really gives people, give students the strength to embrace both their ancestral heritage, but also, you know, their gender identity, their sexuality, right? Teresa Delfin : These other aspects of themselves that might not be as celebrated at home. Also, and I know I’m, I’m saying a lot here. I can go on for days on this. The film is also really, really wholesome. So it is about gender transition, but it’s completely available for all ages to watch. There is nothing risque in the film at all. So it’s, it’s the kind of film that if a student came to me and said, Hey, I went to your screening. And I think it would really help me to show it to my grandmother. May I? I would absolutely send that film to the abuelita. Right? And I think it could really help a lot of families. Glenn DeGuzman: That’s phenomenal. I know that I have conversations even with my teenage kids about these topics as well. And my daughter began exploring her gender identity a really young age. So I think that’s phenomenal that it can be connected to the family. You just shared a little bit about the historical context and how Mexico, you know, obviously it’s a large country that’s in, it’s very diverse. And just even, just, even within its own context. And so a critical theme that I picked up was the role of social systems, right. And the how economic and even workforce can contribute and how the environment really plays a big role in Shaky’s journey. And I’m thinking about that on a college campus. So what role does college environment play or can play in support of our trans identified students? Teresa Delfin : Yeah, well, I think the college campus is one of the most important and safest places for a lot of our, of our students. A lot of our young people, right. And there’s a moment in the film where Shaky talks about how at work, she has to present herself one way and you see her work presentation, but then she says, but at college I can be myself. Right? And people understand. And so I think there’s we all, you know, we all know this, we all, it went through this in college, right? Where there’s just a much greater access to a huge range of personalities. And you can try things on, right. You can experiment where you can finally just be yourself, right? If you’ve been hiding sides of yourself at home. And so I think you know, this is, this is something that’s really come out during COVID right? Is that I think it’s really important for people to be able to, if they don’t have access to these safe places or safe communities at home, because they’re stuck at home, right? They, they need to know that those are available somewhere, right? They need to know that the world is bigger than their bedroom or their family home. Right? And I’m very grateful to those campuses that have made dorm life available to the students that really need the safety and expansiveness of college life in the moment that they’re in. Glenn DeGuzman: And it’s really important, not only with the college environment, you know, obviously it’s wonderful when campuses are, are able to stay open. So during like breaks, right? Where lots of students return home, but not everyone can return home because, you know, for many various reasons and specific to this conversation, maybe it’s not safe. Right? And that’s something that needs to be acknowledged and recognized. So for student affairs practitioners like me, you know, I, you know, I work a lot with international populations, with our transgender identified students and other and others, really the intersection of identities, social identities is really an emerging trend, pattern, particularly in US institutions, US college institutions. What type of advice would you give student affairs practitioners, faculty who support students with these diverse intersecting identities? Teresa Delfin : Well, I think one thing that’s really important is that I know me as a professor, I think a lot of counselors, right? We’re used to being the ones doing the talking, but I think one of the things that’s really important is to mute ourselves periodically figuratively and literally, right? And listen to people’s stories. Right? And to get really good at asking questions. I think there’s so much advice we can give, but at some point it gets old for students to just be constantly getting advice. Right? But learning how to ask questions and learning what the right questions are that really resonate with students. Right? And let them tell us their stories so that we can learn from them. And also, I think that way we learn who the leaders are in different, you know, different capacities, who can be the role models, who can be the mentors, right. Teresa Delfin : But letting the students speak for themselves and represent each other, I think is incredibly important. And I really think that there, you cannot overvalue the importance of storytelling in empowering people to understand who they are. Right? And I think part of that too, one of the things that I’ve seen a lot is that I think the people with the greatest self-awareness are our greatest assets. And I think giving students an opportunity to really know who they are. Right? So even a little thing, like often I also do a lot of study abroad. And so one thing that I’ve learned in study abroad is to, to not unleash a bunch of 19 year olds on a new population, if they don’t already know who they are, it is catastrophic to do that. Right? And so a tiny exercise that I came up with a couple of years ago is just asking students to complete the sentence, “I will make a lot more sense to you when you know that…” Right? And it frees them up to tell a micro story, right. And it gets them used to telling their story and these little tiny increments. And if you have a whole room of students doing that, it becomes a story that builds on itself and they grow more and more comfortable with that. And a self aware person is a future leader. A self aware person is a person who is not going to self destruct. You know, a self-aware person is going to know that the future looks brighter when we get out of this strange 20, 20 moment. Right? So I think it’s super important. And I think you know, my goal is that the film by showing Shaky’s own ability to situate herself as exactly who she is in spaces that aren’t used to, people like her. Right? And seeing that we know when people really know who they are and they bring themselves with confidence and self awareness and poise, right? Into the world, the world is usually pretty welcoming to that. Right? And I think it’s a really, it’s a really strong and important role model to share. Glenn DeGuzman: Yeah. So this, this podcast, webcast is called student affairs now. And so let’s focus in on the “now,” right? What are some of the things that stick out for you as you move forward, you know, as you continue this journey with Shaky, what are the things that you feel are going to be emerging issues or topics not only for Shaky, but also just our trans* community? Teresa Delfin : This is important. This is a great question. So I think, I think it’s really important to have conversations about gender identity and about sexuality across cultures. I think it’s really important for Americans or Euro Americans Westerners, as we like to say, northerners to to again, listen a lot more to the other stories, right? Because we’ve got this model in the, in the United States that we tend to think is universal. Right? So for example I, I’ve done a whole series of interviews about, “the closet.” And when I ask people about “the closet” in Mexico, they often respond with, Oh, you mean the “American closet,” you know, we don’t have that. Right? And so we’ve got, we’ve got this idea that there are these patterns around gender and sexuality, right? So for example, in the U S we’ve made up the script, it’s really damaging, right? They were the, the process of coming out, right. First of all, is natural that there’s something kind of inherently just natural about it. Right? And the process is that, you know something about yourself and you suppress it, or you lie about it. And then eventually you come to terms with it. And then you disclose that you were lying. That’s a terrible script. Teresa Delfin : Whereas, when I asked Mexicans about their own process of becoming self aware as queer, right? Or self-aware as trans, I will often ask I will ask dumb questions. Like, you know, when did you know, right? Or who was the first person that knew? Those are good questions in the U.S. They’re dumb questions in Mexico because people will all, almost always, they’ll say my mom knew first. My mom always has known me better than I know myself. So of course I didn’t have to tell her. She just knew, and we just talked about it. Right? And so I think that that’s an important one for trans people. I think in a very, very, very important script to pay a lot of attention to is the way that we’ve really medicalized gender in the United States. And the rest of the world is not as tied to surgeries, to hormones, to modifications. Teresa Delfin : Right? And so being really attentive to the ways that our own, you know, American culture is already hyper medicalized. Right? And so it makes sense that we’ve hyper medicalized gender as well. Right? But other places where medicine might be more holistic where acceptance of bodies is more universal. Right? And then there’s, there’s not a pressure to conform to a certain type. You don’t see the same kind of medicalization. Right? Teresa Delfin : So I think understanding that you know, our idea of what it might mean to be a person in transition versus a person who has transitioned those that same terminology doesn’t exist in the same way as in Latin America. Right? So understanding that I think can be really instructive and really productive for just giving our students, our young people, more options about how they see their own presentation. Glenn DeGuzman: That’s very powerful and the conversation definitely needs to continue especially on college campuses. And so it brings up this this thought of how, how do we or how do we bring this film, like the screening to a college campus, or how do we, how do we connect folks to you? And potentially I know that this can be when I, when I see this film, I think about opportunities to do trainings, diversity training, just to have to start the conversation. Because I think that students, as they, as to what you share, as they talk about and use their voice to tell their story, they see bits and pieces of their identities resonate or connect with in this, in this film. So how do they connect with you? Teresa Delfin : Easy. I’m all over social media. And I have, I have a website. So remember my name T Delfin. D E L F I N. TDelfin.com is my website. T@TDelfin.Com is my email. ProfessorDelfin is my Twitter. So please reach out to me this, this strange COVID moment has actually proven to be really good for film screenings because I don’t have to travel to get to you. We can do remote screenings. And once the world is safe, I’m happy to travel to you. But I’m, I’m flexible, I’m available. And I would love to share this with as many campuses as possible. Glenn DeGuzman: And I know all your social media information is on our website. And I do agree with you that in this COVID landscape, when, when online engagement oftentimes is really, the limited choices that you have. So this is a perfect opportunity to connect with folks and engage in really important topics. And it’s it’s just an opportunity to learn more, right? More about particularly the trans* community. I think this is just an interesting story. I’m a believer in the power of media. And so there is definitely wonderful things. So I want to thank you, Teresa, for joining me today. This is the time that we have with this special episode of student first now again, if you want to get in contact with professor Delfin, please go to our website. And while you’re at our website, please invite others to subscribe, share, share our page with on social, leave us a five star review. You can find us on social. You can retweet us share like yada yada. You can do a lot of different things. And, you know, personally, if you want to reach out to me, if you’d like to hear other topics or interesting topics that you want me to delve on, please let me know. Again, my name is Glenn DeGuzman. Thanks again to our guests and to everyone who’s watching listening. See you next time. Bye bye. Thank you so much. Bye.