Scott Burke: One of the things that we stress in our program a lot is we talk all the time about, “Kids, you are gonna need to go out and get some type of education beyond high school. Like, get ready for that.” It could be the military, it could be college, it could be apprenticeship. I mean, but just be ready, that high school is not gonna be the be all, end all. The second leg of our three-legged stool is that we always say, “Develop a skill that can’t be offshored and is AI proof.” Um, and that’s just good for longevity of your own personal life, because whether you go to college or not, the goal should be not college. The goal should be you’re gonna end up in a career. What career is that gonna be, and it’s does college actually serve you going into that career, you know? I mean, that’s kind of the ultimate thing. And so we’re working with students with that. And the last leg that we stress, and we do this all the time with parents too, and we put them through, um, back to school nights, parent-teacher conferences, et cetera, is we have to get your kids to understand the value of work, that they are going to have to work, and it’s not gonna just come easy for them.

Glenn DeGuzman: Hello, and welcome to a special edition of Student Affairs NOW. I’m your host, Dr. Glenn DeGuzman, and today I am recording from Livermore, California, and acknowledge that I’m recording this podcast on the unceded land of the Ohlone peoples. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in, alongside, and adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs.

We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Like I mentioned earlier, my name is Glenn, and I’m really excited about today’s panel because this is… Actually, it’s a special episode because I believe this might be the first episode where we have a panel of folks who do not currently are employed in higher education or in, in, in a college campus.

But they work very closely with and are very familiar with the college environment. This group joining us today are Jay Mehta, Scott Burke, and Meghan Grace, and through their work as educators, consultants, organizational leaders, they have a unique insight into the emerging alpha generation and the environment shaping them.

Today, they’re gonna share their observations about the attitudes, communication styles, developmental trends, and educational experience shaping Gen Alpha. Now, in my opinion, this is the exact insight that will require student affairs professionals to rethink about our support structures, communication styles, and campus life.

So today’s episode I see as a primer for the future of the college experience. This episode is sponsored by Evolve, and I wanna, definitely plug our sponsors ’cause they make the podcast go. But Evolve offers four leadership coaching journeys designed to expand capacity and build capabilities, empowering courageous leadership to transform institutions and reimagine the h- future of higher education.

Now, before we dive into the first question, let’s kinda get to know our panelists a little bit better and hear the lens that you’re bringing to the table today. Meghan, love- welcome to the podcast. I know you were a past guest pre-pandemic. Give y- give us a quick 30-second overview, the

Meghan Grace: lens you’re bringing.

Absolutely. And I, h- hi, everyone, and thanks for having me, Glenn. And it feels like 30 sec- or like 30 seconds is so short, but I’m trying to remember when I was last on the podcast. It was pre-pandemic, so it was a lifetime ago. But where I’m currently hanging out with y’all from, I’m calling in from Nashville, Tennessee.

But in my current life I’m a researcher and a consultant. I’m a former student affairs friend, but I realized I like to help campuses and people on campuses. Lots of campuses, not just one. So I always gotta shout out my formal, my, my alma maters Arizona and Vanderbilt for my higher ed and really formative experiences there.

But I now operate my own consulting firm do some research with the Institute for Generational Research and Education, and help run the Association of Higher Ed Consulting and Coaching. I gather all the, the outsiders that are serving higher ed in unique and different ways.

Glenn DeGuzman: And I believe you co-authored a couple of books, right?

Is that correct?

Meghan Grace: Correct. Yes, correct. A few on Gen Z, and then our latest on was Generations in the World of Work.

Glenn DeGuzman: Outstanding. That’s really cool. Thanks for being on the show. Jay, welcome to the show. Jay Mehta, a little bit about you.

Jay Mehta: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Glenn. So I’m Jay Mehta. My pronouns are he, him, his.

I’m an English educator in the greater Philadelphia area, and I’m also a doctoral student in education leadership at Arcadia University. For me, I’m always striving to harmonize the three worlds of storytelling, education, and leadership together. And being here with y’all today to talk about Gen Alpha I’m looking forward to this interesting conversation.

I don’t think it’s talked about enough, so I’m looking to- forward to seeing where it goes.

Glenn DeGuzman: I’m definitely looking forward to your perspective. I know that we g- I met you for the first time at ACPA this past year,

Jay Mehta: and- Convention. Yep …

Glenn DeGuzman: convention, and we had a great conversation, and I’m thinking, “Oh my gosh, I want this person on my podcast.”

So but- I

Jay Mehta: forgot about the inception of that. That was like a two-hour lunch. It’s crazy. We had this- And now we’re here.

Glenn DeGuzman: I don’t know if we should say that out loud because I’m supposed to be in sessions, not at two-hour lunches, and Oof.

Jay Mehta: It was a two-hour lunch for me. I’m keeping you to it.

Glenn DeGuzman: I’m keeping you

Jay Mehta: to it.

Glenn, you were only there for a couple minutes, of course, but…

Glenn DeGuzman: and and that was like, thanks for being on the show. S- Mr. Scott Burk, welcome to the show. A little bit about you. You have a really interesting background, and y- I think that this is really kinda neat to have you here, so thank you for joining us.

Scott Burke: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Glenn, and Meghan, and Jay. It’s so nice to meet both of you. I am a teacher, administrator, curriculum developer, love writer speaker, philanthropist, and business owner. I wear a lot of different hats but primarily I’m best known professionally as someone that bridged career and technical ed, specifically skilled trades, with core academics in a program that I co-wrote called Geometry in Construction, where it’s now being taught in over 2,300 high schools nationwide.

My kinda unique lens to this is bringing both the world of work together with academics and really going with that with students. Wow.

Glenn DeGuzman: Now, Scott your program is in 45 of the 50 states, which is amazing

Scott Burke: Yeah, 45 of the 50 states. The only states that we don’t have representation is Rhode Island, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Mississippi, and Washington, DC.

Glenn DeGuzman: Yeah, I did a little research on you, and I saw so- you’re, like, on NBC all the time, and so I saw that some of your students have built homes for… tiny homes. High school students are building homes for people.

Scott Burke: Yeah. So actually, as we speak right now the house that my sophomore students just built this past year is being set here in Denver on its permanent foundation currently, right now.

So right after I get done with this, I’ll actually head to the site and see what’s going on there.

Glenn DeGuzman: Amazing. Great work in there, so this is a powerhouse panel, and I’m excited to to have this conversation about our Gen Alpha, our s- students who will eventually get to the college campus. But Meghan, let’s start with you because obviously you have extensive experience with with generations and and I wanna get our listeners on the same page sort of a macro view.

An area of your work as a consultant definitely focuses on generational strategy. In higher education, sh- we’re, we’ve talked about this before, and I won’t get into it, but we’re still trying to figure out Gen Z, all right? And Gen Alpha is right on their heels. And so I know it’s hard to forecast, but to the best of your abilities, what are the defining characteristics of the Alpha generation so far, or at least maybe the anticipated characteristics?

And how is the heavy influence of their Millennial parents shaping their view of education and authority and whatnot?

Meghan Grace: Absolutely. That’s, such a great question, and I hate to be like, “Let’s put a downer on the conversation so early,” but it is. It’s all forecasting right now. When we look at generations from a an actual research lens we wait until they’re in their really formative years of the latter teen years, early adult years.

And a big part of that is generational cohorts tend to be shaped by society and what’s going on with the world the minute they fly the coop or when they start that identity development of “This is who I am, this is how I relate to the world, this is how I interact with the world.”

And right now to set the stage, Gen Alpha, we’re using the timeframe of born between 2011 and 2024. So they’re really two years old at the youngest, so they don’t really have any characteristics besides toddling around. And the, the oldest are 15. And 15, you’re really starting to get into that identity space and I know my fellow guests will probably be able to give us really great case studies of that.

But right now, Gen Alpha’s v- still very shaped by their immediate family units, who’s raising them, and then their friends. So we do have to look at this point to, in an anticipatory kind of perspective, what’s going on with parenting trends, what’s going on with family rearing and family structures that’s going to influence how they’re gonna approach those formative years where they really start to…

Their, I would say their generational cohort or that culture among their peers starts to gel- … which collides immediately with higher education right when they start to be like, “This is who I am, this is how I navigate the world,” is when they show up in usually in, in that post-secondary space, whether that’s going into college, going into immediate careers, serving in the military, gap year, you name it.

But right around 17, 18 is when we start to pay attention to Gen Alpha. So when we think about what’s going on with their parents, we know millennial parents, Are a, a sort of an evolution of their baby boomer parents, like wanting the best for their kids, which is not solely a generational thing. But being very heavily involved and also being incredibly informed.

So super informed, and also really this mark of a collaborative approach to raising their kids, so they are collaborating with their kids. And in some cases in this space of with millennials navigating kind of some interesting terrain as adults and young adults trying to shield their kids from that.

And so I think with millennials being online and just all of us being online more, we’re sharing more about how we’re parenting. And so we’re seeing, even not in our own families, how millennials are parenting Gen Alpha. And so there’s this close nature of it, of them being involved in their parent- or in their children’s lives.

And then for Gen Alpha we also just can, we can anticipate that every generation is gonna glom onto technology a little bit more than the, the previous generation because tech aptitude is higher. It’s like learning languages, right? You are just better at it when you’re younger. And so we do see the rise of the iPad kid, right?

Whether or not that gets if that sticks or not, but I do think that’s gonna be a piece of how they’re navigating the world is their tech aptitude and that tech fluency that they have. I think we’re gonna see in some cases an element of them being, like, a hyper version of Gen Z.

But we also have millennial parents that are like, “I’m trying to give my kids a ’90s summer.” I see that all the time on Instagram and social media right now of “Trying to give my kids a ’90s summer where we don’t have a cellphone. We’re just outside eating popsicles.” Have an lemonade stand kinda stuff, which I think there’s some beauty to that as well.

So that’s a non-answer for you, Glenn, of we don’t know yet. They’re not old enough. But we can start to take some guesses, and I truly think Jay and Scott are gonna give us some really clear case studies of what we’re seeing in the classroom if we’re not raising Gen Alpha, because it’s hard to say what a 10-year-old’s gonna be like.

They got 18- or they got eight more years until we really start to think about their generation.

Glenn DeGuzman: You’re right. No, that makes a lot of sense, and th- this is a perfect segue ’cause we’re g- we’ve got the m- we’re gonna get the middle school perspective, and we’re gonna get the high school perspective in a hot second.

But Jay, so you are, you’ve got the core of the the rise of the the iPad kid, the Gen Alpha right now in your middle school classrooms, right? And we often hear that the generat- this generation just communicates differently. Meghan referenced just a few examples of just sorta th- these are native, they’re native to technology in even a greater rate than the previous generations.

I’m curious to know and we had a conversation about this and just the different forms of communication social media, phones emojis, whatnot. What are you noticing about how your students are expressing themselves, how they’re processing information, and how do they engage with just the regular traditional literacy?

Jay Mehta: Yeah. Thank you, Glenn. And Meghan had such great points that she raised about what this generation is or what we are forecasting it to see them as. This is not a plug, but I just saw Toy Story 5, and that is actually really great film to see what Gen Alpha is like right now. Just like engaging with the iPad versus playing with toys or just trying to hang out with somebody in person.

It was such a 10 out of 10 film. I definitely recommend it. But that, that’s a lot of what’s going on, right? So technology is, from the jump, they have it in their lives. And even for me, being a millennial I get later on there were still I was on the cusp of, the internet and, just getting onto Facebook and all those kinds of things.

So still a ’90s kid, so I’m still able to have my own ’90s summer, but it’s a lot for them to navigate both trying to be For lack of a better phrasing, just humans. And then also navigating what the tech world is doing for them and to them. So in a lot of my world like when we’re talking about language, it’s a lot of memes, right?

It’s a lot of memes, it’s a lot of slang. We as, especially in middle school, we have to embrace that. You’re either getting with it or you’re not, right? And the kids pick up on that real quick. The benefit of me working in the middle school setting is that once you build that rapport, that heavy lifting that we all do in the forever month that is August and September combined then the, the students are with you for the rest of the year and you’re continuing that rapport when we’re trying to read classroom novels with them and those kind of things.

But then you have to weave things in that make sense for them. So like anime that they like, video games that they like to play, sports that they’re involved in, just generally speaking. And in my class we always do like a what’s good routine, so we’re, I’m always like locked into… And that’s another one too, right?

Like now it’s just on my vernacular, saying locked in, right? Them being able to share about their lives day to day lets me know okay, like this is the way they speak and this is how they’re speaking about it. So for instance like right now I’m transitioning in between teaching sixth grade, which I have for the past year, and now moving into teaching seventh grade English, right?

So that transition between six to seven, six, seven, is a lot of what I’m dealing with, right? And I did that on purpose because again, that is also my literal world, right? And I have to embrace it. And what I do see is that these students, they really do understand language, like very well. It’s a matter of us as educators or administrators or people, adjacent to education, being able to tap into how students are speaking right now- and seeing the modes of communication that they use. Discord, right? A lot of the conversations that they have on Discord, for instance or even like Twitch, whatever, like group me chats they’re in, it’s 24/7. These kids, like they don’t really get a break from all this stuff, and so they bring a lot of that kind of discourse into the classroom.

So a lot of my job as an ELA teacher especially, I know history teachers have to deal with this as well with maintaining civil discourse in the classroom, is making sure they understand yes, like this is great familiarity you have, but we have to be able to transition this to academic language, and also just generally creating a respectful classroom setting.

So that’s a good bit of what I’m dealing with.

Glenn DeGuzman: Can I ask a quick question? Because I, you’re saying is it really feel- I’m starting to feel that as an older, what the term seasoned administrator in higher education. And I’ve historically as a communicator tend to be very formal more traditional.

I write longer communications emails. And I have found even just students today in the college environment want things- Like quicker, faster more immediate. My kids, they’re in college, and, I get the, the normal parent. “I know. I know, Dad. I know. I know.” But they also are much quicker in their responses and the, like the conversations, they want faster.

I’m assuming you’re s- from what you’re saying, that’s what, that’s what you’re seeing, and we have to shift, or at least in, at the college side where faculty can have long, drawn-out lectures. Are we looking at more they got, we all gotta learn to be more short-form in our s- in, in how we communicate?

Jay Mehta: Yeah. That’s a great question, Glenn. Just I think that- A lot of, especially in middle school, that I think we just have to do because they’re of that age, is build in breaks. Their attention span for any given activity is about 10 to 12 minutes. And so you have to constantly transition. We’ll do we’ll do a do now to start, right?

They’ll come in, they’ll settle. I usually have light jazz music in the background, a screensaver, whatever. They get in they go into their independent reading, and then we do a writing prompt. I usually give one if they struggle with it, but then it’s always a free write for them.

And then we share what’s good in their day, and then we get into the lesson, right? And even that has variation. I really love being able to have students volunteer to read. I know a lot of educators nowadays, they prefer to play the audiobook version. And there’s pros and cons to both parts, but in my classroom, listen, I’m trying to build the future voice actors, right?

I got great students who … I got one kid, like he, he could be, like, the next Miles Morales, you know? Why would I deny him that opportunity? And a lot of them, what happens with that, especially for for kids of color, especially boys of color ’cause I grew up hating reading and writing. I share that at the beginning of every school year so my kids know that I’m here for the reluctant readers and writers, ’cause that’s what I was when I was growing up.

And so when these students are volunteering to read, guess what? Now they’re, a sudden, they’re like, “Wait, reading is fun. It can be cool. My peers think I’m cool, and this longform content could also be something that I can entertain now.” Yeah. So a lot of it is convincing them to believe that’s what they want, too.

Yes, the short form communication, but also there is the benefit to long-term as well. But we have to build that stamina throughout the year to convince them that they can invest in that longform content as well.

Glenn DeGuzman: Thanks. And it’s eerie that you had a Miles Morales reference. I fell asleep to Spider-Verse last night.

Ooh. And that is a fast-moving quick-paced movie. It’s really interesting and it ties into what you just shared. Scott let’s turn this next question to you. This is an interesting one. A lot of people, including families and when I say families I’m in res life obviously, and s- for those who don’t know, for the listeners so we talk to a lot of parents and in, in my involvement in the community.

There’s a lot of questioning whether a college degree is still worth the time and money. I know that geometry and construction, that thing you created is amazing. Kids are literally applying classroom learning directly into the real world, and I know you’ve done some serious assessment on how they’re performing.

Kids who historically have been tracked to not be in the AP classes who are just, who are performing admirably in state testing. But you just, you have kids building houses and learning geometry. So this, in my opinion, is teaching students real practical skills. Do you think Generation Alpha is going to expect colleges to offer more hands-on, job-focused learning and c- and how can universities be ready for that, especially some of the research one, the research, more theoretical campuses?

Scott Burke: Yeah, that’s a great question, Glen. And yeah, to answer that, absolutely. I, I just finished up a school year with what I would call Gen Zalpha, which they’re right there in between Gen Z and the Alpha generation. And one thing that I’m noticing that’s a little bit different from the newer students that I’m having as far as this freshman, sophomore group, because that’s typically when they take geometry, is that they have their own little world that they are always engaged in, and that little world is on their little boxes.

Their little cell phones, their iPads, their whatever. Especially in school districts where it’s a one-to-one ratio of device to student students walk around now all the time. They’ve got their ear pods in, whether they’re listening to anything or not, they are hooked into that.

And so what’s happening from my perspective is that school for them or work even is like an interruption to their already world that they’re living in. And you have to really create an environment that breaks that to some extent. Unlike past generations, it’s not enough to just say

I’m Gen X too just like you, Glen. It’s not enough to say, “Oh, you’re gonna need this information for the next class you’re gonna go to,” or, “You’re gonna need this for college someday,” or even work. That’s not enough of a motivating factor for an awful lot of these kids that I’m seeing.

So they are very starved though for a couple things. One, human interaction. I see that over and over again. I liken it to like if any of you follow The Avengers and you’re talking about Tony Stark and how he had Jarvis. It’s like that. These students using AI, they are more apt to go to AI first for anything.

And, I teach math. We used to run a program where our math problems, because they were real world coming directly from the construction industry where they are three and four and five-step processes. So if you know anything about math education, most math classes across the country, it is basic arithmetic one and two-step problems.

As soon as you start jumping up into three, four, five-step problems, that’s traditionally what we would call story problems for most of us. That’s how we knew it. It used to be that AI couldn’t do those, but this year that is completely different. AI is sophisticated enough now where students can actually take pictures of math problems that have been written, and they will get a complete step-by-step process of how to actually do it.

Now, for them, if you don’t nip that in the bud, what ends up happening is that they are just doing that because it’s the easy way. I can write down all the steps. I can come up with the exact right answer. I don’t actually need to learn the material. Why would I actually need to do that? And so what makes our program really unique when we’re working with students is that then we go out to actually apply it, and oh my gosh, it

They’re like, “Wait, my device now that I’m so used to using like Jarvis is completely obsolete. I can’t have that on the roof with me when I’m framing this house,” or, “It’s not helping me solve this problem of the stairs.” And a lot of it comes down to things like tool manipulation. I see that especially as a skilled trades educator.

Some of the students that we have, they’re so intelligent with using technology and things, but then when I put them in a live situation where it has to be applied, it’s like watching someone with two left feet. Just they just fall over. And so I think colleges really need to change some of what they do to absolutely put more of that in there.

I think the other thing that students really want is they want to be able to positively impact their communities in philanthropic ways, and they wanna be able to make a difference. And That I’m seeing over and over again. There’s reasons why, for example, in our skilled trades program for geometry and construction that we run about 40% young ladies who are self-selecting to be in it.

Wow. It is not because they wanna go into careers with construction. It’s because we’re building houses for local families in need. That’s the secret sauce. And so they’re doing it for a number of different reasons. One, just to give back. Two, because they wanna be able to use that on resumes, cover letters, college applications, any of those kinds of things.

But also it just feels good. I mentioned earlier I’m gonna go out right after this and be on the construction site where they’re setting this house. I’ve got four students who are gonna come there and be interviewed by the news. And these are kids that are giving up part of their summer, their 90s summer, right?

And they’re locked in. They’re still locked in even though they just finished. And they don’t have to be, but I just put a call out to them on social media, and four of them instantly replied, within three minutes. Yeah, things are gonna have to change for higher ed for sure.

Glenn DeGuzman: L- I’m gonna stick with you because I skipped the first question that I was supposed to ask you, but- Yeah

but I wanna ask you ’cause what you just said so you’re basically saying higher education you need to start looking at the hands-on experiential learning component versus the traditional lecture styles, Yeah … because this generation is looking for an immediate application, right? I- is that- Yeah

what I’m hearing from you?

Scott Burke: Yeah. I would actually say higher ed, you better buckle up and lock in. I- you’re gonna have to be leaner and meaner than you’ve ever been in the past, and what I mean by that is you really need to cut to the chase. Like these, these Zalpha, Gen Alpha kids, and eventually I’m guessing Gen Beta, they’re all gonna be coming to you, and they will cut through the crap fast.

You can’t just stand up there and just say let me tell you about how this house is all put together.” It’s like, “No, show us. Prove it. Let’s go. Let’s actually do this hands-on for real.” So anybody that teaches classes that are lab-based, you already have a leg up. You may have to actually increase that- I see that colleges, if you still are running a college where you have lecture base that’s 500 people in a room, there’s something that’s gonna have to shift.

That’s just my prediction.

Jay Mehta: Glen, can I just add a thought there too? Oh, of course. Because the application is so critical, right? These kids don’t care if you’re just gonna give them theory. How does it make sense for their world? We have to make it relevant. And to Scott’s point too about the meaning behind it, right?

It’s interesting how right now higher education is struggling with, what’s- what’s the value proposition, right? What- what are we actually selling to students? And how Meghan brought up, there’s a lot of the- the family unit that goes into play for why students are even deciding to wanna go to a four-year institution or even a two-year institution.

And it’s interesting because we seem to be in an era where it’s a lot of individualized choice for going to college as opposed to bettering society, that students seem to want to just see what degree is gonna earn me the most money? But then Scott, you’re seeing that it makes the students feel good when they’re actually building homes for those, like, low income areas, right?

So that’s interesting, right? There’s- there’s this narrative and then there’s that narrative. So it… That- that’s why I wanted to speak on that because it’s one side is saying they just wanna go for college for themselves, but the other part is what if we have them apply their skills and it’s relevant for them, and then they actually feel good to do good for their communities?

Maybe that’s what we also need to tap into more. And we have the time. We still have time to work on that.

Scott Burke: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with you on that, Jay. One of the things that we stress in our program a lot is we talk all the time about, “Kids, you are gonna need to go out and get some type of education beyond high school.

Get ready for that.” It could be the military, it could be college, it could be apprenticeship. But just be ready, that high school is not gonna be the be all, end all. The second leg of our three-legged stool is that we always say, “Develop a skill that can’t be offshored and is AI proof.” And that’s just good for longevity of your own personal life, because whether you go to college or not, the goal should be not college.

The goal should be you’re gonna end up in a career. What career is that gonna be, and it’s does college actually serve you going into that career, that’s the ultimate thing. And so we’re working with students with that. And the last leg that we stress, and we do this all the time with parents too, and we put them through back to school nights, parent-teacher conferences, et cetera, is we have to get your kids to understand the value of work, that they are going to have to work, and it’s not gonna just come easy for them.

And that as long as they have all three of those things, especially the willing to work part- There really shouldn’t be a day in this country that you’re unemployed. There really shouldn’t. I’m not saying that you might not have to move for the employment or something like that, like move from mom and dad’s house or move from whatever city you grew up in.

That’s probably gonna happen. But if you have the education, the skills, and then also the willingness to work, you probably are gonna be gainfully employed

Glenn DeGuzman: Wow. I

Meghan Grace: just wanna say I’m really thankful that Scott and Jay are doing their jobs. I’m gonna get southern for a second. Bless y’all, you’re doing the Lord’s work.

Because I think that’s so important first that students come into higher education knowing that there’s educators like that, and I do think that there’s a ripe opportunity for educators in higher education, our faculty members, our student affairs administrators, to be mimicking what I think our K-12 friends have gotten, they’ve glommed onto a lot earlier, is that time blocking, that application.

We don’t need to make students do the independent activity of figuring out how what I’m learning in English class is gonna apply to my future, right? Make it just really clear. And sometimes we like to do that in higher ed where we’re like, “It’s a secret. You’re gonna figure it out.

It’s a secret.” It doesn’t need to be a secret. It do- it… Just help the people make that connection. And I just, I’ve, I really, Scott, I like what you said around they both need education and a skill. And I think in higher ed again, I say this of a, as a, a w- a person who has two degrees in higher education, I love higher ed.

Put me on a college campus, I’m so happy to be there. It is my happy place, and I didn’t have to go to the college. I walk around random college university campuses all the time. But the purpose of what we need as both education and skill is sometimes we’ve conflated that in higher education.

We’ve said that those are two things. And if I’m gonna take it all the way back, I just watched Hamilton recently the idea of early formation of what we do as a country. One of the most American ideals is this idea of public education was the goal to help people be better thinkers.

And so the role of education in its truest form in the US is really to help young people learn how to read and write so that they can engage in civic discourse, they can read the public media math to do their taxes, and civil discourse to protect democracy. And we’ve conflated a lot of our education system to be so skill-based that we’re forgetting that huge piece of l- teaching young people to learn, critically think, engage with one another, and learn a skill.

But we’re not separating those two things. And so Scott, I just gotta commend you because what you’re doing is all of those things, right? You’re helping the young people give back to society. You’re helping young people engage in critical thinking. Whether they go into construction or they go follow your footsteps and become an educator, you’re giving them that opportunity to sit together and say, “We’re gonna work on this societally, use what we learned in class, and make the world a better place.”

That’s, you’re d- you’re doing what we’re supposed to be doing in education, which is helping young people- fully develop themselves.

Glenn DeGuzman: Absolutely. It’s amazing. That is, that’s very well

Jay Mehta: said and I would say too, to that point, Meghan Scott’s something of a unicorn, right? Let’s just name that.

But- Yeah … educators don’t have to be. That’s the other That’s the other myth that we sell. My magic

Glenn DeGuzman: pony.

Jay Mehta: Yeah. Is this master class educator? It’s just look, just care about the work that you do, and then students will care about the work that they have to do. It’s actually that simple.

And if we can just get- … more folks on board in the pipeline, make it more accessible for them to come in and do the work that they enjoy doing, then the students are gonna resonate with that. Yeah. And Scott just happens to be the trailblazer leader for all that, so thank you, Scott, for all that you do.

Yeah.

Glenn DeGuzman: Yeah.

Scott Burke: We,

Glenn DeGuzman: we have a- No, thank you. Thank you both. I

Scott Burke: mean-

Glenn DeGuzman: We gotta, and we’re inflating his ego. We’re inflating his ego. No, big

Scott Burke: time.

Glenn DeGuzman: Big time. But you’re doing great work. And I was, I wanted to let the listeners know on audio, we chuckled because on for those who are on YouTube will see this, but Scott did an impression of a unicorn.

And so m- more for you all listeners on on the audio version to go onto YouTube and take a look at Scott’s Unicorn impression.

Meghan Grace: And YouTube is where gen alpha would be watching this. You know what? We’re- They wouldn’t be audio tuning in We’re at X.

Glenn DeGuzman: That’s real. Actually, Meghan- … you bring up a good point because we’ve had a- Yeah, TikTok

We had a conversation with the podcasters and the team, the Student Affairs NOW team, and we are seeing a shift where people- … are absorbing our information, and it’s shifting to YouTube.

Meghan Grace: Yeah. Yeah. Not me. Yeah. I’m old media. I’m old media. Keep it radio light. Yep, yep. I love an audio podcast.

If someone’s like, “Watch my podcast,” I’m, “That’s a TV show, friends.” Oh, my. But the people that love the video podcasts, live your life. I’m not gonna tell you how to consume your media.

Jay Mehta: I think it’s that. It’s like visuals for the podcast, and then it’s audiobooks for the listening.

That seems to be- … a lot of what my own students are doing. They’re … And they’re 12. I’m like, “You’re listening to the audiobook? Great. That counts as real reading.” I like to tell them that too.

Wow. Yes.

Meghan Grace: Yeah.

Jay Mehta: Wow.

Glenn DeGuzman: Interesting.

Scott Burke: Wow. All right. And I will say this, though. Gen alpha, 60 minutes for this is gonna be way too long for them.

Meghan Grace: No. They’re, they tuned out 20 minutes ago. Yeah. They’re like, “

Scott Burke: Is this over?” Exactly. We might need to snip this

Jay Mehta: into a gif part. Yeah just a highlight. Just Scott with a unicorn and then some other snippets, and we’ll be

Meghan Grace: good. Yeah.

Glenn DeGuzman: There you

Meghan Grace: go. Then a an emoji flying across the screen, and it just “You’re cute.

We love you.” That’s all you gotta put on there.

Glenn DeGuzman: We, one of the shifts I think our podcast is making too and we’re like, we’re totally going on a different direction with this. There’s a lot of good conversation, is we are gonna be doing timestamps to break up the episodes. So people can immediately- Yeah

do what they wanna get to, and that is an ask. And the we’re … Modification’s everywhere, so for sure.

Jay Mehta: I see that as a, a sign of res- respecting people’s time, because they wanna know what’s gonna be value added for them. And like any generation, right?

Everybody’s busy. So I think the timestamps are … That those are clutch.

Glenn DeGuzman: So I’ll tell Nat, our producer, to do a, a timestamp to Scott’s unicorn impression in the- Yes … so we can just go directly to it.

Jay Mehta: Put him in the thumbnail too to get the teaser, it- Yeah. Reel the people in.

Meghan Grace: You gotta hype it up.

Glenn DeGuzman: Hype it up. Yeah. So let me so we digressed, but that was a fun s- side tangent. But Meghan, I wanna ask a question that emerged- … in a conversation that I had with a parent, and I wanna bring it here. The, the parent we’re both Gen X parents, and we both have college-age students college-age kids.

And, I can’t help but when I listen, when we listen to other parents on, on how they’re raising their kids and, parenting approach, it’s what we do as parents. I like to oftentimes, the pe- the parents I hang out most with, they’re Millennial parents. And you made that reference earlier about Millennial parents being very collaborative with their kids.

And I see them treating them as almost peers in decision-making, both at work and just in the conversations in my community. When this generation hits college admissions and residential life and the things on a college campus, what advice or what kind of partnership or customer service experience are these parents and students, since they’re doing this collaboratively, going to expect from university administration and student affairs professionals?

Meghan Grace: So I think the first thing is we have to remember that Millennials are, we are a unicorn of a generation in it- in ourselves of we are big and we’re large and in charge and everyone wants to tell us that, so we like to shake things up even though we were just born at a certain time.

But with Millennials, we were the first generation that we went to college at a time when, call a spade it got real expensive to go to college, and we saw more Millennials needing to take out student loans. And then we see a huge economic shift around the messaging around what college was and then the economy that we entered the workforce into.

So where they were like, “Go to college, you’ll get a job. Go to college, you’ll get a job. Go to college, you’ll get a job,” right? We were told that. And then 2008 came around, and it was like, “Go to college and try to stay in college as long as you can, ’cause you’re not gonna get a job.” Or, “When you get a job, you’re going to be…”

And a- this is just the, it’s the stereotype of a barista with a master’s degree. I love my local baristas. I always give them the extra tip. But we were told, “Stay in college as long as you need to.” And there wasn’t that translation from economically speaking what previous generations saw was, “Oh, four-year degree, you’re gonna have a really nice paying job.”

And so millennials, I don’t think we regret going to college, but we’re looking at it with a definitely a magnifying glass. And as parents who started the let’s say adulthood a little bit behind economically, a little bit behind from a career trajectory standpoint, we’re looking at it and saying, “Is it worth it?

Is that investment worth it for our kids to be going too?” I don’t think it’s a full no. We see educational attainment go up with every single generation, but I think it’s gonna be uniquely attained. So I think we’ll see more millennials encouraging their students to take gap years to really figure it out.

I think we’re gonna see more millennials say, “You know what? You are really gifted. You were in Scott’s geometry and construction program, and you’re actually really gifted in that. Maybe you go and you do a, an electrician training program.” Or “You are mechanically sound. You don’t need to go do mechanical engineering.

Go do your technical trade.” So I think we’re gonna see millennials actually guide their students or their young people in their lives, whether it’s children or people that they’re raising towards an educational attainment after secondary schooling with a little bit more of that fine-tooth comb.

When it comes to our traditional four-year institution setting I think we should be prepared to realize this is a full family experience now. This is a not just mom and dad or, my parents or guardians are paying for me to go to school. They’re like, “I want communication about what’s going on.

I want to know that the experience is gonna be able to take care of my child, ’cause I’m giving you tens of thousands of dollars a year.” This is a full family experience now. I’m not saying parents are gonna be going to college with their students, but they’re gonna care a lot and they’re gonna be involved a lot.

And we’ve seen that with every generation. Baby Boomers were, like, helicopter parents-esque ’cause they were like, “We’re paying a lot of money for you to go to school.” Gen Z-ers, when they got to college, again, Gen X-ers were involved, but they were like collaboratively involved. I think millennial parents are gonna be even more involved in a different way.

So it’s it, we’re selling to, we’re gonna, from a higher education standpoint, we’re gonna be selling to parents and guardians who went through an experience that might not have panned out as fruitfully as we were sold that we could. And so I think that there’s just this, this reckoning that higher ed’s gonna have to go through and student affairs is gonna have to go through, and this idea that we’ve been selling people this mindset of if you go to college you’ll get a good, you’ll get a, a good job.

And we, sometimes we can’t promise that. And I think that we’ve gotten so intertwined with college being the place you develop the career skill, but college, like we know that universities are not staying as, we’re working on it, we’re not staying as adaptive to technology changes as the workforce demands.

And so I’m wondering if we need to decouple like our very intertwined relationship with industry of saying “We’re gonna train your computer software engineers.” And say we’re gonna train students in computer software, but we’re also gonna teach them to be incredibly deep thinkers that can engage in s- like again, that civil discourse and that peer interaction that’s gonna make them a high quality employee that’s the full package.”

So it’s one of these things of like I think we really have to understand what the role, and be okay with what the role of going to college is and what it isn’t and really committing to that and being okay with the fact that we can’t be a one-stop shop for everything. We’re not gonna be able to do everything perfectly, so what do we do really well?

And I think that’s develop the whole person. I’m a traditionalist when it comes to what I think student affairs and what higher education should do for young people that if I had it my way everyone would be doing a gap year in liberal arts and a study abroad semester. But I’m not made of money here, people.

But that’s what I personally am like, let’s give them all the high impact practices, mentoring, you name it, to make these whole humans that are really s- have that solid foundation of being a good person before they get into the workforce full time.

Glenn DeGuzman: Meghan, I am resonating 110% with what you’re saying, and I’m speaking from this sorta like perspective as both a longtime student affairs professional in higher education, over 30 years, and I keep thinking intuitively these students are just vastly different.

And I have two kids- Who are pushing my envelope because I’m used to a script and how higher education is supposed to go, but they’re pushing, they’re… It’s flip. They’re, like, almost acting like, I’m thinking of taking this gap year. I’m thinking of doing this extra, th- this training because I wanna get this,” to complement what they’re doing in college.

So they are almost driving some of those pieces because they’re probably seeing that in their peers, and they’re just, these are emerging thoughts, and I can only imagine what the Gen Alpha generation’s gonna be like when they get to campus. Because it’s that- Yeah … partnership with their parents who are thinking that.

Meghan Grace: Yeah.

I think that we’re it’s okay for higher education to understand that when students enroll, it’s an investment, but it’s not an 18-year-old or a 19-year-old enrolling on their own. There’s a whole group of people that are supporting them along the way, and it is an investment of money.

Don’t get me wrong. It’s not cheap to go to college. But it’s an investment of time. We’re saying, “Can you give us four years, and we promise we’re gonna make you better?” And sometimes we can’t fulfill that promise. And we know that it’s not the fully the institution’s responsibility. There’s a little bit of that partnership that has to occur between the student and the and the institution.

But it’s an investment of time and energy that we really have to be able to back up. And so I don’t think there’s anything wrong with understanding how the consumer is changing, ’cause ultimately the consumer is, it’s two part now. It’s not just the student, it’s the student and the family. How that dual consumer mindset is playing a role in how they choose college or not to go to college, and what they’re willing to do to invest their time and money.

Glenn DeGuzman: Jay, I wanna h- give you this question, and it ties into some of the comments that Meghan has made and Scott’s made about the Gen Alpha and critical thinking that we’re trying to prepare them for. Looking at through your perspective I know that even in our conversation at ACPA, you look at pedagogy and the art of teaching deeply, and I think that’s what led to our two-hour lunch conversation, by the way.

Gen Alpha is the first generation to have AI, like ChatGPT, present for their entire secondary education. How is this changing the relationship with critical thinking, problem solving, and academic STEM? We’ve covered so many different pieces, and I’m just curious to get your lens on that

Jay Mehta: I’m gonna try to keep this one brief, but honestly, productive struggle.

So when I’m working with students on, let’s say like a TDA, so a text-dependent analysis, right? It’s the standard like five paragraph essay that they need to be able to construct for the purposes of like our state standardized assessment in Pennsylvania And it’s it’s heavy lifting in the beginning, but I try to make it fun.

So we, in real time, are, like, constructing this together. I’ll make mistakes in the moment, and I’ll always remind them that real writing is revision. And when we’re doing that in real time and I’m acknowledging each student’s contributions to the greater dialogue, they see that we’re constructing this together, and we’re not using AI in the moment, not really.

Sure there’s spell check, right? And those kind of things. But I’m trying to… especially for middle school I feel like a lot of what I’m trying to convince them is that learning is fun. Learning is powerful but I want them to know it’s fun.

And so constructing that in real time together, they get a sense, wow we didn’t use much technology for that other than like, yes, a screen share to a SMART Board, and we can all do that together, and then we go back and forth on it. And then they leave the class, they’re like, “Wow, that class went by quick,” right?

I got a lot of students who you know fortunately, they say “English class is always going so quick with you, Mr. Mehta,” right? It’s because we are in intentionally building fun of the productive struggle. That’s something that AI can’t take away unless we let it take it away from us.

The human endeavor of productive struggle, that’s what we’re trying to sell, and if we can sell it well enough, then the students are there with us.

Glenn DeGuzman: That’s a really I appreciate hearing that. Do you… i’m gonna ask a follow-up. Obviously, yes, learning the enjoyment of learning is w- our educators’ dream.

And we have a tool like A- like ChatGPT, which is still in its infancy if you really think about it, but I also see people just like using ChatGPT as their shortcut and they cut out the critical thinking. So it’s going against like what we really want our students to gain, that critical thinking nature.

I guess this is open to you and to the others, like it, what’s the future of this? Wh- where are we heading towards? Because I do see, interestingly, some work that’s coming to me, I’m like, “Oh, this is ChatGPT. This isn’t their thoughts,” and now these are… i’m curious to see if w- if this is a dilemma, if this is gonna be problematic or…

I’m just trying to look into the crystal ball here a little bit.

Jay Mehta: Glenn, what I like to tell my students when I don’t have the answer is, “That’s a great question,” because it is. I don’t have an answer. I think just in my specific context for teaching middle school English, I like to keep things contextual, otherwise I’m gonna lose my sanity.

I just like to think of it as if I see that they are just copy-pasting a writing entry that they had from January and try to reproduce it for May, and if I catch that, I’ll have a conversation with them. I don’t catch everything I just can’t. But I try to like 80/20 optimally tell them like, “Guys, at this point it is more work for you to try to cheat using AI than it is for you to just do the work and actually gain something from it.”

That’s the saving grace I rely on in my context, but I’d be curious to hear what are solutions from Scott and Meghan as well

Meghan Grace: I personally think one of the biggest compliments anyone can give anyone in this day and age is, “Wow, that’s a really great question.” Because I think the art of query, like true query, not like, “Hey, Google, what is the speed of light?”

A deep question takes human thought and context as Jay was pointing out. And teaching young people how to an- ask a question before they even get into ChatGPT is just, that’s research 101. Even my Google just started to… I have my audio assistant that was like, “Hello, what did you need?”

But I think that asking a question, a really well-formulated question is, again, that intellectual skill that AI’s not gonna be able to teach us that. AI can’t out-human humans. And so we have to be able to teach young people how to ask a question even if they can’t answer that question. So that’s something that I’m like, that’s how we can continue to combat that, like that narrative of “AI’s gonna take over the world.”

I’m like, AI only answers questions. It doesn’t know how to ask the questions

Scott Burke: That’s great. Yeah. I would agree with both of you on so many of those points that you just said. I think the biggest thing with AI is that it’s that critical thinking component, because they can get answers, but then it’s being able to analyze and think critically “Wait, is this really the right answer?”

Because it’s that questioning ability beyond just an answer that gets spit out at you. Earlier this week, I was actually at the Aspen Ideas Festival presenting up there, and one thing that’s really unique right now is that I feel like for the first time ever, college, K12, and business and industry are all starting to be at the same table at the same time, which is really unique.

That’s probably for a separate podcast altogether, Glen, just letting you know. But we’ve been talking about that my entire career, how difficult it is to get everyone at the same table. And so it’s cool that we’re all here in this. Going back to the AI thing, though I love, for example, in my world when I have the kids say we’re gonna, I don’t know, frame a wall, for example, and they go and they do some investigation on their own ’cause again, they’re connected to their own little world, right?

And they’ll look up YouTube videos, they’ll look up all these different things, but then they’ll say while we’re doing it, “Wait, that’s not how I watched it in this video.” And then I’m like, “So which way is right? Is my way right, or is their way right?” And sometimes they find out, actually, both ways are okay.

Sometimes they find out “Oh, you’re taking a shortcut here, Mr. Burke and this person didn’t do that. Why are you doing that?” Sometimes they say, “Oh, this kind of goes against building code,” which I love when they bring that up, ’cause I’m like, “Wow, I have inspired you to think about building code? I didn’t even talk about building code, really.”

And they’re keeping me on my toes. And so even at college level the days of I am the professor, I am the all-knowing being who should be up here lecturing to you, again college folks, you better lock in, because these kids will roast you.

Glenn DeGuzman: Oh, my goodness. That’s phenomenal. Let- okay. We’re getting close to time, but I know you want me to ask this, one of you wanted me to ask this question, so I’m gonna ask this.

So we’re gonna do this very quickly. Y’all know I’m a big Comic-Con geek. The listeners know I’m a big Comic-Con geek. I’m about to go to Comic-Con in a f- in a couple weeks and do another podcast out there. So I’m gonna sneak in this superhero question. What would you say will be gen- this is a crystal ball thing.

What will y- what would you say will be Generation Alpha’s biggest superpower when they arrive to college, and what will be their kryptonite? So it’s a speed answer question, and because Jay wanted this question, Jay, you get to go first

Jay Mehta: Yes, I did want this question going. Thank you. Strength or superpower would be resiliency.

I think there’s a narrative about every generation that comes after, especially with technology, that they’re just a bunch of snowflakes, right? They can’t handle things in real life. I don’t agree. I see students who are 12 years old who have just miserable home lives, and they have to get up in the morning, and they got their own siblings to take care of.

Sometimes they’re taking care of their own parents at that age. They’re coming into school just trying to exist. And then if we’re trying to be the sole custodian of knowledge in the room and lecture at them and not make it sense for their lives they’re gonna clock out, right? So I see a lot of resilience that alongside those home lives and navigating the cyberspace, we don’t give them enough credit for how resilient they are.

So I see that as being their superpower. Kryptonite would be the paradox of choice, I think because they exist in an era where there are so many options for them, and they don’t even know what’s gonna be an option for them in the next year or two. So to Meghan’s point earlier about what are we selling them for four years, when in four years so much can and does change, it’s a lot of them to navigate.

Can we really convince them to direct their focus on one thing when nobody really knows if in a year or even six months that thing’s gonna change? So paradox of choice, I’d say, would be a lot of what they have to deal with as well.

Glenn DeGuzman: Thanks, Jay. Meghan, you wanna go next?

Meghan Grace: I’m happy to. I wrote this down because I had to think about it the whole episode.

I think their superpower is gonna be, like very Inspector Gadget inspired of being able to be like, “I have a tool for that. I have a technology for that. I have an iPad,” or, “I have a something for that.” So I think that’s gonna be one of their superpowers. I think they’ll have many. I think their kryptonite is gonna be patience and immediate answers.

So slowing down the pace of because I have a tool, I can get to the answer quickly. Where, again we’re trying to do ’90s summer. That means sometimes we gotta slow down and understand the full context. So I think their that’ll be their kryptonite is patience and not just being able to swipe to find the thing.

So it’s, they’re very closely related as I think almost all superpowers and kryptonite are.

Glenn DeGuzman: Love that. Inspector Gadget, that’s great. Scotty?

Scott Burke: Yeah. I would say that the superpower is gonna be resourcefulness. That, they truly do have the world at their fingertips, and that they can just pull at a moment’s notice.

Actually, in some ways, with their devices, they can just mention it, and then the algorithm will start feeding them answers anyway. It just happens automatically. I think the kryptonite for this generation is gonna be the hands-on world of work, and what does it actually look like in reality.

What does it look like to actually go and wire a house, for example? Or just do some of those kinds of things. That’s gonna be critical, and that’s gonna be an ever-emerging thing. It’s that AI-proof, skill-based type of work that’s gonna guarantee them employment.

Glenn DeGuzman: Outstanding. And we are out of time, and But we always close with this question for Student Affairs NOW. So if you can kinda share very quickly your final thoughts what are you thinking about? What’s still troubling you? Or from this conversation today, is it getting you to ponder about new things, new student affairs topic episodes?

But I’d love to hear your final thoughts, and I’ll go right back to the top. Jay let’s hear your thoughts.

Jay Mehta: So for me, I’m thinking about agency. I like to keep it real with my students, no matter how young they are. I tell them, “If you wanna be caught in the Matrix, be my guest. But if you’re here to learn and you want to critically think, I can guide you.”

Glenn DeGuzman: Great. Meghan?

Meghan Grace: I think I’m… I don’t wanna say I’m troubled by it, but I think what’s sitting with me is the concept of humanity and how technology and the world that we’re in is trying to strip us of that. And I think that younger generations are telling us there’s more to life in the work, than the work we do, and we are humans.

And so I think education is grappling with, how do we make good humans, not just how do we make good employees?

Glenn DeGuzman: I second that. Scott, finish us up.

Scott Burke: I’m actually just thinking about how awesome it was to be on this with both of you and with Glenn too. And I love the fact that we’re from very different backgrounds, but we’re all collaborating here, which is just really awesome.

Glenn DeGuzman: Thanks, Scott. We covered, I think we mentioned this at the very beginning, we covered all four time zones, right? Yes, we did. This was a very insightful and fun episode to do. So thank you to the guests Jay Mehta, Meghan Grace, Scott Burke, for just sharing space with me today. This conversation was very fun and very insightful.

We’re gonna thank Nat Ambrosey, our incredible producer, who’s gonna be getting this episode ready for launch. And of course, our sponsor Evolve. Given the current context of higher education, we need to invest in leaders with the capacity and capabilities to transform their institutions and the future of higher education.

The Evolve Institute for Higher Education Leadership offers four leadership coaching journeys tailored to four different leadership levels. Each is a three-month journey that includes individual and group coaching, plus a curated curriculum of short asynchronous video modules. We also offer Evolve for leadership teams if you’re ready to evolve your leadership voice.

Visit evolve-institute.com to learn more. And with that, we are done with this episode. To all our listeners out there and to our viewers on YouTube, and if any Alpha Gen kids made it to here, kudos to you, but I doubt it. Have a great day. See you next time. Bye everybody.

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