Neil E. Golemo
Howdy, welcome to here’s the story, a show that brings Student Affairs to life by sharing the authentic voices and lived experiences of those who are shaping the field every day. I’m your host. Dr, Neil e galimo, I am the luckiest guy I know. I’m blessed to serve as the Director of Campus living and learning here on Texas A and M, Sunny Galveston campus. I’m a father, a husband and a son, and I’m over here just trying to do my best, or get caught trying. I’m here with my co host,

J.T. Snipes
hey, Neil. JT snipes. My pronouns. Are he? Him his? And apparently that was hilarious to you. I don’t know what’s going on, but I serve as Associate Professor and Chair of Educational Leadership at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, and I’m just trying my best to live as a free black man in a world that would happily live otherwise,

Neil E. Golemo
we need to thank today’s sponsor, Huron. Huron, education and research experts help institutions transform their strategy, operations, technology and culture to foster innovation, financial health and student success. So. JT, I am super excited to welcome you know, it’s weird. I think we’ve become friends over time, but I will tell you, I’ll tell you a very young, professional way back in the day, around 2011

W. Scott Lewis
Hey, who was young in 2011

Neil E. Golemo
I was younger. It was me. Yes.

W. Scott Lewis
Oh, you were the young professional, yeah. So thank you.

Neil E. Golemo
So after that dear colleague letter from Department of Education, everybody was scrambling to learn how to do to take Title Nine seriously. And I remember thinking, This is ridiculous. I am a housing coordinator, like, what am I doing here? And this should be the police’s job, or this should be somebody else’s job, and and then I went to this training and with Scott Lewis here, and it kind of changed everything for me, and honestly, it’s changed the trajectory in my my life in a lot of ways, including my research interests and just my passions and how I show up for this work. So Scott Lewis is managing, yeah, yeah. He’s the managing partner of tng, but he’s also been doing the Student Affairs thing for ever 30 years, right over,tragically, over 30. Yeah,

Neil E. Golemo
who’s counting? And so, you know, I have a hard time imagining anybody spending time with Scott Lewis and not being better for it. So Scott, what’s up? Hey, tell us your story.

W. Scott Lewis
For sure. For sure. Thanks, and thank you all for inviting me to be a part of this when we were kind of going through and first having this conversation about, you know what? What story to tell? You know, you can’t spend five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years in student affairs or as the faculty member, and not have stories you got them. You know, you always want to say, you know, the working title of your book is, you’re not going to believe this. Like, that’s, that’s every student affairs, and particularly Neil, if you’re in housing, like is, there’s just the stuff that happens is unbelievable. But when I was looking back and kind of processing with the within the new and I processed it a little bit, kind of landed on one it was, it was pretty profound. Still has impacts me to this day, and has a lot of lessons inside of it. And the story happened when you know, as you know, I’m one of the co founders of nebeta, National Association of behavior intervention, threat assessment. And so bits were very young at the time, as we know them today, when this happened, and obviously a lot more interest after the tragedy of Virginia Tech happened in higher ed. And so we had a situation on our campus, and it was this young man, and he had gone to take an exam. And I’ve written about this story, but not in much detail as I’m probably going to talk about today. He’d gone to taking an exam. I was a senior, and he went into the classroom and he sat down and he wrote, it’s a class where, apparently this happens, you know, think you’re really hard high level, like engineering science classes, and he just wrote something across the top of the paper and went to the front of the room, handed, put it down on the table, and just walked out, like five minutes into the exam. Now, I’ve learned later from the people that teach these classes that sometimes that happens, sometimes. Students are just like, well, studied all the wrong stuff. Well, abandon ship. And so they weren’t as taken aback by that as what they were taken aback by is what he wrote across the top of the paper. And what he wrote across the top of the paper was, if I kill them and myself, will they stop following me? And that’s all he wrote. And then he just walked out of the room. So one of the proctors took a look at it, and thought, this kid’s just messing with us. What jokester the other one took a look at him, was like, we should probably tell somebody about this. And so they walked down the hall to one of the associate deans and showed the Associate Dean what was turned in. And the Associate Dean was like, let’s just assume this is serious, and we did a pretty good job of marketing our bit. And so he called me. It was like, Hey, I’ve got this thing. And I was like, All right, you know, give me get a copy of it. And we got the police involved, and we called our bit together like it was me, the director of the Counseling Center, and the chief of police. And we’re kind of having this conversation about, hey, let’s find this kid. Let’s find out everything we can find out about all the things bits are supposed to do, right? But again, this is early on in the time, and while we’re doing it, my my admin for the office, that was effectively the title was not important, but I was effectively the Dean of Students, so I had a lot of behavioral things in my office. And my admin comes in, he goes, Hey, I think you want to take this call. And I was like, Hey, I’m kind of in the middle of something, and he’s like, he’s like, no, no, I think you want to take this call. And I was like, All right, so I pick up the phone, and on the phone is a guy several hours away who works at a high school, and he’s calling, he’s like, Hey, I’m on the phone on another line with this kid, and he is in a bad place, and he’s one of your students. And I was like, All right, well, great. Two cases at once, like, this is phenomenal. And I was like, well, we’re kind of in the middle of something, like we got this kid, and he like, what’s your kid’s name? And he tells me the name. And I’m like, holy crap, it’s the same kid, yeah? And he’s like, yeah, he’s in a bad place. And I don’t, I think I know where he is, but we’re not sure. Meanwhile, we got guys, like cops on the way to his house, where he where he is not and honestly, by luck and crook and what this guy did and saving this kid’s life. He we figured out where he was, and he’s basically holed up in an apartment off campus with this girl that he met a few days before. And so we figured out, and we having this conversation, and we decided, hey, this is crisis response. So law enforcement, you’re in charge. Like, what do you need me to do? And the guy on the phone back from the high school, goes, Hey, when he told me that what’s going on, he goes, I went to your website, and I was like, student in crisis, and your bit came up. And so he’s like, can you come get me? Can you come get me? And I’m like, I can’t get there, man, but there’s this guy I know that you can trust, and his name is Scott Lewis. And I was like, Why me? Dude, look. And he goes, Well, it says you’re the chair of this thing. So I figured, like, you’re the important one, right? And I was like, Uh, sure. So long story bearable. We decide, Hey, should we, like, does he have access to guns? The answer is yes. And he’s like, he’s telling about this drug dealer went wrong, and he thinks he might have murdered somebody. And I’m like, Whoa. Hang on now. And so we’re trying to make this determination. And what we decided was we were going to go to the apartment where we knew he was holed up, and we were going to take law enforcement with us. And there was a discussion, and I need to point this out to folks that might be listening, particularly Dean students. There was a discussion about whether we should send somebody in from law enforcement and say it’s me, and that guy was basically trying to take this guy down, or should we go in shock and odd playing down the door, flashbangs the whole bit, and just take him out, not murder him, but take him down. And so the answer was, hey, why don’t we see if we can talk to him? And then our site was like, hey, if this guy sounds like he’s in the middle of a psychotic break, this is delusional. You can’t send somebody in that says they’re you, because the minute he figures out it’s a lie, it’s gonna go badly. And so I was like, All right, well, I’ll tell you what. I’ll go in. And now this is the part where I want to tell everybody in the intro. We didn’t give a lot about, like, hold my whole background, but one of the things you should probably know that not most deans of students don’t have, like, first of all, if you’re Dean of Students, you shouldn’t be doing this, but I happen to be able to go through a lot of law enforcement training, including hostage negotiation and inter interrogation and interview skills, so it’s something I’m familiar with, and I felt comfortable enough going in, and I the law enforcement felt comfortable enough with me going in, but his delusion was that the government was following him because of this drug deal that had gone wrong, that turns out, didn’t actually happen. And so our Chief of Police says we’re gonna send a car over. We’re gonna take you over. We’re gonna send a hash negotiator with you. We’re gonna send a couple snipers. We’re doing this. And so he sends the car over. And I look out my window and they’re pulling up to get me in the car. They send black SUV. I’m like, Did you not hear what his delusion is? Is that the government’s following him. You don’t think the black, tinted SUV is not going to be bad. And he’s like, no, no, no, he’ll be fine. So we drive over there, we get over the apartment, and we knock on the door, and this woman answers the door, this young woman. And the funny part when we’re knocking on the door is that I got an FBI negotiator with me, one of our CBI FBI guys, and he’s, he’s, I’m. Like, he’s got, like, the best, the best song. I go, Hey, should anyone know this? He’s like, No, you’ll be all right. And then he knocks, and he like, steps to the side. And I was like, I should probably step to the side too. And then this woman opens the door, she’s clearly one of our students, and she says, Oh, are you here for him? And she names him. And I’m like, yeah, actually we are. And she’s like, Yeah, I was wondering when somebody might show up. He’s been up here for a couple days. He’s been like, journaling, like crazy, and he just says all these crazy things. But she’s like, you know, he’s in my bedroom. And I was like, He’s, what’s he doing? She’s like, he’s asleep, and he the the agent that’s with me goes, Hey, is there anybody else in the apartment? She says, Yeah, my roommate. He’s like, I need you to go get her and get out of the apartment. This is the weirdest thing that happened you guys. The roommate comes, she’s clearly just gotten out of shower. She got like, sweatshirt and like, shorts on, and she’s the hairs all wet. And the agent goes, Hey, you need to leave. You both need to get out of here right now. And the roommate goes, Why do I have to leave? And I was like, because this guy with the gun in the badge just told you you should probably leave for your own safety. Like, because you’re weirded out by this guy too. There was a small part of me, this isn’t very nice, everybody, if you’re listening, but there’s part of me says, I guess, I guess, if she wants to stay in whatever assumption of risk, you know, you did it

Neil E. Golemo
exactly the best. Yeah, exactly.

W. Scott Lewis
She gets out. We go in, we try to establish she has a gun in the room or not. And we go in and which the agents with me says, Hey Scott, what we just said? I was gonna knock on the door because she said he was asleep. I’m gonna wake him up, but he’s expecting me that’s important to the story, like we’re not surprising him. And she says he’s like, Hey, Scott, if the pucker factor gets too tight, he’s like, I’m gonna scream your name as loud as I can, and you need to drop to the floor. And I’ll never forget him this quote, he goes, because the body count today is one or zero. Well, no in betweens. And I said to him, I was like, Man, I feel sorry for you. And he goes, Why do you feel sorry for me? And I go, because you might have to kill somebody today. Like, that’s, that’s a lot. And he’s, I feel sorry for you. You’re the one going in there. And I was like, All right, fair. So we had a little moment. Knocked on the door, went in the room. He was kind of groggy, waking up, and we sat down, and I sat down on the chair by the bed, and he sat on the bed. He was kind of a wiry kid in really good shape. He had a big, giant ring on his finger. And I was like, Hey, what’s that ring from me? Well, first, actually, he’s like, who are you? And I’m like, I’m Scott Lewis. He’s like, Oh, you’re the man. And I was like, Wait, at least we’ll figure that out later. But yeah, I guess for these purposes, I am the man. And then he says, Can I see your ID? And I was thinking back to what our psychologist said, Wow, this is when it would have gone south. And so I showed him ID, and he goes, All right. So you know everything that happened? I was like, and he goes, and you can make things right. And I was like, well, let’s talk about that. What happened? And it was weird guys, because he would have, like this, clearly delusion that he’s in, and then he would go out and come into saliency and come back and forth. And then he wanted to go out and smoke cigarette. We had two snipers set up outside, like it was tense in there, but we kind of bonded in there. And then he asked if he could take go outside and smoke a cigarette. And I was like, Sure. We got on the back, and I said, you need to know there’s a cop in the other room. And he’s like, why is there a cop here? And I was like, because I’m the man. I don’t know you. And the other fun thing that happened, I forgot this part, is when I asked about the ring, I was like, What’s that ring for? He goes, it was a champion wrestler. And I was like, okay, so this gets into close quarter combat. Not only is he half my age, but I’m screwed. So we go out. He meets the agent out there. They have a nice one. It’s like, he actually goes, he goes, he gonna shoot me. And I said, Only if you do something wrong, you don’t do anything. Just let’s go out and smoke cigarette. He’s like, All right, so we go out. They have a tense meeting. He goes to smoke cigarette. We’re out there for about another hour and a half, two hours. This whole thing took six and a half hours. Wow, that’s how long we were in there. And then I finally got him to volunteer to go to the hospital. And he said, I’ll only go if you’ll write with me. And I was like, Sure, this is the part, guys, gets to me still this day, so and he’s like, I don’t want to go in an ambulance. And I was like, well, Plan B is a black SUV. And he’s like, we’ll do the ambulance. So we go out, and we’re sitting on the curb. He’s just wearing a gym shorts and teeth and tennis shoes, like I’m sure on, and we’re sitting on the curb waiting for the ambulance to come and he looks at me and he goes, there’s something really wrong with me, isn’t there? I was like, man, there’s something wrong with all of us. And then he did the part that really just got me this kid. He’s, I’m five nine. He’s about my height. He literally crawled into my lap, into like, like a baby, put his arms around me, and he’s like, what’s wrong with me? It was like. I don’t know, man, it’s just tough. So we got to the hospital, finally tracked down his mom and his brother. They were able to come up get him voluntary hospitalization for he had had a psychotic break. The happy ending to the story is that he had inpatient, obviously, for a while, got out of the hospital, covered. He ended up going somewhere else to finish school, and now he is last time I checked on him. He was still teaching coaching, but living every day, if you know how psychotic breaks work, living every day, fighting off that delusion like every single day of his life. And so when we were processing this afterward, you know, it was kind of like the two funny parts that have, well, one, not funny, one funny. We’re processing it afterward, and we’re like, hey, was this a success for a bit? And I was like, man, we got there too late. Like, the whole point of having an intervention team is to get there early, early, early. And in our after tax report, like we’re trying to figure out, like, when is this hard, and how could we have known? What could we have known? What could we have known? There was a lot of things we couldn’t have known. I think we did as good as we could have done. But afterward, I was asking the guy, the hostage negotiation guy, I was like, So how’d I do? And he said, You know, it’s sort of outcome determinative. And I go, what? And he goes, nobody got hurt, nobody died. He went to the hospital. He did good. And I was like, Wait, that’s how we grade it, like how I did in there. And he goes, you know, you didn’t lie to him. You built a bond. He trusted you, trusted you enough to meet me, and we got him where he needed to be. So it’s a success, it’s a win. It’s like, so take the W, and that’s what

Neil E. Golemo
happened. Wow,

Speaker 1
questions, yeah, I mean,

Neil E. Golemo
so how could you have ever left that life? Wow, I did not think that I was going to hear a story about the gift behind like that, but I think I just have to say like it’s really, really hard to question the importance of what we do when we hear stories like that.

Neil E. Golemo
So how, how does, how has this affected? Had you continued on? Like, how do you, what do you do after that?

W. Scott Lewis
Um, there was a lot of processing. You know, it was super emotional with family at the hospital. There was a lot of, like, thinking back, and, you know, it did end well, but I still think back and go, you know, should I have gone in there? Like, was that the right move I had just, you know, had a wife, had a young baby that we called on the way. That’s another funny thing. It’s kind of funny, like, we’re on the way, and all the officers, the two guys in the car in the back that were friends of mine, and the guy that was just meeting from the Bureau, they’re all like, calling their families, like, Hey, we’re on this way. It’s very serious situation, an active shooter, blah, blah. And I was like, I should probably call Kim. I was like, Hey, honey, I’m not gonna make it to the birthday lunch today. We got the situation. It’s pretty serious. And I was like, But the President is present is on my desk. If you were my office and grabbed that, that’d be great. And she’s like, okay. She’s like, well, who’s with you? And I told her the officers that are with her that she knew as well. And then later, I was like, when I hung up, like, the guy, the guy driving, he’s like, she took that really well. And I was like, You know what? She did take that really well, almost too casually. Like, should I be worried about anything? So when I asked her later, I was like, hey, you know that the gravity of it? One, she didn’t, like, fully wrap her head around it. But two, like, she said something really cool. And I think it goes to the relationships that we have with our, you know, the folks that we work with every single day and all those other departments. And you know, these two officers were both there, and she’s, she called him my name, and again, I’m trying to make sure everybody stays in the scenario, but she called my name, she goes, I know they would never let anything happen to you. Just kind of a cool level of trust we built there, you know, we knew them, and you know, in any of you, and I’ve talked about this. JT, my wife’s background is victim advocacy, and sometimes law enforcement and victim advocacy don’t have the nicest relationship. That’s not what we had, you know, and I’m doing Title Nine investigations, that can be a tense relationship. That’s not what we had. It was just people trusting people to do the right thing all the time. Time, and that actually, that that event has made me really commit to bit even more, and trying to find these kids that are struggling at the very, very beginning. You know, whether it’s they’re being told they’re they have less worth, or they’re right? You know, you think about what’s happening today. You know, the CDC data, the Trevor Project Data is Jed Foundation Data is very clear that these kids are being harmed. And so it’s so important that that big connect them and get them early. And you know, been saying to all the coaches and athletics folks and club sports and clubs and orgs, every time I finish a presentation with them, I say I’m not pandering to you. The data is clear. Their suicidality and self injury drops when they feel like they’re a part of something, and it goes up when they feel like they’re excluded or outcast or have less worth. So the work we do in student affairs right now is literally saving lives, literally every single day more than we did before.

J.T. Snipes
And what a powerful story. I asked this question to all of our guests, and I’m curious, what made you want to tell this story now,

W. Scott Lewis
you know I’ve told it before in some in like, teaching capacities and like, how do you get more information? How do you market and things like that. I think when I was processing it with Neil ahead of time, like, he like, he’s like, think of some stories. And then we went over, like, two or three options, and I had a couple, you know, there’s some that are like, feel good, and they still make me feel good. Like, you know, kids getting into law school were in trouble at one time. And, you know, they came from a really troubled background and got them on the right track, that kind of thing. This is the one that, to this day, still like, yeah, chokes me up. Like, it just, it’s like, I mean it, you try not to, like, choke up too much at the end. But it’s, it just gets me that could have been like, that could be my kid, you know,

Neil E. Golemo
right? It’s Scott, you know, I think listening to this story, I’m not gonna lie, like there’s so many things where, like, I would not have done that. I wouldn’t have done that. Me too, absolutely never have let anybody do that. And so, you know, when you’re in the business of consulting, right? So, like, Oh, what, what would you what would you take from like, what would you want people to take from this? Like, what is the the essence

W. Scott Lewis
if I were as a risk manager and legal consultant to schools everywhere. If my client came and said, Hey, we’re sending our AVP dean of students into a hostage situation with an active shooter, I’d be like, No, you’re not. No, you’re not. You know, it speaks to, I think, some a little bit of dumb young arrogance on my part, that confidence that the folks, because the two other people that I talked to, the chief and our counselor, were both far more experienced than me, and the faith they had in me and the faith I had in the people to protect me. But I think why it happened the way it did, Neil, is we had to move in the moment. We didn’t have time to call the VP and the risk manager and the General Counsel and go, Hey, we’re thinking about this. What do you think? Because we’re like, this guy is out there, and we got to move quick. And I think it also speaks to the compassion that our law enforcement had that not you know that certainly you see in the news not doesn’t always exist, that they did not want to go shock and all. They did not want to hurt this kid. They didn’t want something to go bad. If there’s a way to not have that happen, then let’s do it. And we have here. We got this brash dude who we know, at least is moderately trained in this space to go in, and he’s willing to do it, but, you know, there’s a lot of protections in place, and I would not advise people to do this. And I think the policing that’s happening now in the places that’s that are doing policing right with social work and mental health professionals, this is what they’re designed to do now in these situations, so that we can be less we can make not as many bad things happen. And we need more of that right now, actually, than any than any other time.

Neil E. Golemo
I mean, it feels like you you kind of had to bet on the goodness of the person or the ability their ability, like, I don’t know, I don’t I feel like that’s not something you take for granted. I think there’s a lot of fun. Folks who, you know, feeling threatened versus being threatened. And I feel like there’s just a lot of, I don’t blame anybody who assumes the worst, like assumes that once you hear delusion and crazy, you know, so I don’t know, I really admire that. I hope to do that if I’m ever in a situation anywhere near this.

W. Scott Lewis
Yeah, I mean, folks that are having a break like that, you it’s really about relatability. I mean, they’re just living in like an alternate space, and you got to become, you got to go there with them, and, you know, not be like you’re crazy, like that didn’t happen, like there’s not a time to question. You got to get in there with them, you know, from the etixa training stuff Neil, like, it’s a lot like being a good investigator and bonding with somebody really close and getting them to trust you in that moment. And you know, the more trust they have and more faith they have in you and your competence, the less likely they are to be agitated or act out or lash out, and so that that first six minutes is so important in that space, like, if you don’t have it, it’s going to go poorly. I’m sorry. JT I think I cut you out

J.T. Snipes
there. Oh no, you didn’t. I’ve just been thinking about the presumption of safety in so many ways, like I think I go through my day not thinking, Am I safe? I’m not in a process of threat assessment, and I’m also a part of I’m also trying to take responsibility for the care of my community. So I think there is something really powerful about making the right decision, even when it even when it doesn’t follow protocol exactly right. Because I imagine if you were the president of the university, or, you know, even a part of the board, if something, if it had gone the wrong way, right? Like there’d be a whole bunch of questions, and I don’t know. So I’m not a university president. I gotta think about that, luckily, right? But there’s something really attractive to me about knowing what’s right and doing it in the moment Right, like being prepared to do what’s right. And I know, I imagine now you may do it differently, but I’m just, I’m just grappling with that, like, what, what, how should we act, and when should we act? I think is really, really powerful and really important.

W. Scott Lewis
Yeah, I think I don’t know if I would honestly do it differently today. I think now I’ve got so much more experience of working with people who have had these, you know, they’re in they’re in the break, or they’re just in a really bad place. Now, now I’ve done more of it, not as dramatically as that one where, you know, we thought this guy could have a gun in a backpack right there, and this could go bad really fast. But I probably would do the same thing. I don’t think that I would coach me back then to do the same thing. I think I would have been like, maybe we just go in and, like, you know, can we, like, just tear gas or don’t hurt him. But let’s like, you know, but now there’s also more people in the space as particularly the care teams evolve, we have more people that have been trained in the space, people that we trained in de escalation, you know, and how to do those things. And it’s just so important to you know, what is safe, right? What does safe really mean? You know, you started the introduction, you know, trying to make it through. You know, you’re trying to make it through this black man in a world where there’s data that tells us, you know, the safety is a real consideration. And, you know, I just, I feel like it’s our job, that anytime we can make feel people feel more included, more protected and safer, we should take advantage of that.

Neil E. Golemo
You know, one thing, one thing I noticed that really just kind of hit me, like, is it through line. I think, for all my dealings with you, and something I really admire about you, and I think, you know, my core values is honestly, it is authenticity. I can, I can deal with a lot of sins. You know, as long as you’re honest, and my dad used to say, like, don’t piss on my head and tell me it’s raining, right? And as long as you’re not doing. In that. But, you know, I feel like that is one thing I always hear from you, is just just respect them enough to tell them the truth. And you know, if you if you’re telling the truth, you can’t get caught in a lie. And I think that’s what draws a lot of people to you, for what it’s worth,

Unknown Speaker
sorry. JT,

J.T. Snipes
what’s that? Oh, no, I was just, I was just gonna say, I think it’s really important for us to take that risk in building a tighter community. And I can’t help but see your MLK quote, right? Like there’s, I think fear invites us, invites darkness and invites solitary. Is the antithesis of community. It drives us away from each other. But your story reminds me the power of light, right? And taking a risk to bring more light into the world. So it’s really powerful.

Unknown Speaker
Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank

Neil E. Golemo
you. Wow. Well, Scott, thank you so much.

Speaker 1
I appreciate you guys asking me to be a part. Man. Been a while since that one came up.

Neil E. Golemo
We’re thanking you, and now we’re going to thank our sponsor, sure, sure,

Neil E. Golemo
colleges and universities to create sound strategies, optimize operations and accelerate digital transformation by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging status quo, Huron promotes institutional resilience in higher education. For more information, please visit go.hcg.com/now, best transition ever. All right,

J.T. Snipes
that was, that was actually a good transition. I’m just, I’m just a hater, though. And I want to say to our sponsors, I’m not booing you. I was booing the transition. We love you here.

Neil E. Golemo
I, you know, I, I love you more now than I did before. All right, this has been, here’s the story, part of the Student Affairs now. Family, we are so glad you joined us to laugh, cry, learn, sometimes commiserate, but always celebrate being a part of the Student Affairs experience. If you have a story, and we all have a story, please consider sharing by leaving a two minute pitch via voice file at Student Affairs now.com/here. The story. Every story is welcome and every earnest perspective is worthy. And even if you don’t feel like sharing yours, you can still find ours and others at Student Affairs now. Student Affairs now.com on YouTube and anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode has been edited by Nat Ambrosey, thank you, Nat for making us sound better than we have any business sounding everybody. We hope this fed your flame a little bit, because your light matters. Keep using it to make the world a brighter place. Until next time this has been here’s the story, peace.

–