Here’s the Story: “Roots and Returns”

Neil E. Golemo
Howdy, welcome to here’s the story, a show that brings Student Affairs to life by sharing the authentic voices and lived experiences of those who are shaping the field every day. I’m your host. Dr Neil e Golemo, I am the luckiest guy I know. I’m blessed to serve as the Director of Campus living and learning on Texas A and M University’s sunny Galveston Island campus. I’m a father, a husband and a son over here just trying to do my best to get caught trying. I’m here with my fantastic co-host.

J.T. Snipes
Oh, fantastic. I love it. I’m JT snipes. My pronouns are he, him his. I serve as an as an Associate Professor and Chair of the educational leadership department at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, and I also feel lucky, and I’m trying my best to live as a free black man in the world that would have me live otherwise

Neil E. Golemo
today, we’d like to thank our sponsor, first and foremost, Evolve empowers higher education leaders to lead with and through perilous times by releasing fear, gaining courage and taking action through an executive coaching program, including individual and group coaching and an intentionally designed and curated curriculum to maximize impact. Thank you. Evolve so okay, I’m so excited to finally be here talking with this guest. Dr, Flunder is somebody who I met through a screen forever ago, it feels like and so many great relationships begin through a screen these days. And you know, it’s hard sometimes to see somebody’s personality pop through a screen, but I’m going to tell you, Dr flunder, it’s hard not to see that pop. She’s somebody who, from the beginning, always made me feel seen and heard and and valued, and I think that is just kind of a through line for her. It has been so wonderful to see her learn from her and get to know her better. And I’m super excited to, you know, celebrate her and her new position and but I’m so excited, most excited at all, to introduce her to

J.T. Snipes
everybody. Well, before you introduce her, I am curious, where did y’all meet? How did y’all know each other,

Neil E. Golemo
through tecuspa? So, so, yeah, we met through tecuspa, and she was the, actually, she’s my predecessor as the VP for research and education for tecuspa, and some

J.T. Snipes
just for the uninitiated, what is tecuspa,

Neil E. Golemo
Texas Association and student college, university, personalities, personnel, administrators.

J.T. Snipes
All right. Good. I’m feeling, I’m feeling appreciate that.

Neil E. Golemo
Doctor flunder shares your story. Well,

Urisonya Flunder
thanks, Neil, and Neil, I just want to thank you in particular, because it has been great getting to know you and putting a face to a name in person and get to know you even more over the last couple of years. And then my new friend, JT, thank you as well. I’ve gotten to enjoy kind of our whole prep time and getting ready for this. You know, when Neil asked me to talk, I was very much like, I don’t know what the heck I’m going to talk about. Like, I don’t know what is cool or interesting, but one of the things that came out of our conversation is just kind of looking at where I am now in my career, and what really hits me now about who I am, where I am, and why I’m at this point in life and and so one of the things that, as I was kind of asked to examine that that came out, was just, you know, looking back at when I was young and I first started out In the field, it was very much like, you know, your Sonia is really, you know, I got into the field, I was so gung ho, and I was so excited I’m going to just take on the world. And I always had this mindset of, you know, to whom much is given, much is required. And I had a really great foundation of education. And people who were educators in my family and great mentors and all these just really awesome people that had touched me over the course of my experience in such a profound way that I knew once I found student affairs and. That’s a whole nother conversation for another day, because I didn’t know what the heck it was until, like, I literally, literally, kind of fell into it. But once I found it, I was like, this is exactly where I need to be. But so many people have really mentored me and prepared me for that experience, and so I knew I had to give back. And so part of my giving back was, you know, just to continue to work really hard mentor students, and I had this mindset, like I wanted to change the world in a really wonderful way. And not necessarily that the world was so horrible, but just, I always had to leave an impact, you know, that was really key. And as I started, I started out teaching. I graduated from college with a speech degree and part of a music degree, and I was like, What the heck am I going to do? And I came from this world of teachers and educators, and they were like, Oh, just go teach. And so I was like, Okay, I’ll go teach. So that’s what I did. I taught for a little bit, and then I quickly realized, through several situations that took place, that higher education is the place for me, and I wanted to make a huge impact. And as I started getting into it more and more, I was like, you know, I think I want to be a college president. I had gone to an HBCU, and I really looked up to a lot of the presidents that I had, you know, interacted with and and had seen, and I really had, you know, great relationships with many people along the way. And I knew that, you know, in my mind, I I could, I wouldn’t say I knew it, but I I kind of figured maybe one day, like, I could be a college president, and I could, you know, continue the kind of the story of these institutions, and so that was really important for me. Well, you know, life happens. And I’m from Houston, Texas. I’m a Texan. True, true at heart, you know. But I had gone to St Louis to work for a little bit, yes, at Wash U, J, t’s like, oh, I went to Wash U for a little bit and enjoy that experience, but I knew at that point that I didn’t want to necessarily work at a private institution at that point. Now, I’m not saying I wouldn’t later on, but for me, that wasn’t exactly where I wanted to be. So I decided that I wanted to go back to a public institution. And also, I had a family member that was sick, and I wanted to be closer to Texas, because St Louis to Texas, not the closest, you know. And so I wanted to get back well. I had an opportunity to go work at Texas Tech, and so I had never been that far out west West Texas. The furthest I had been from Houston was Abilene, and I didn’t know what I was getting myself into. I had never been in West Texas and but I really grew to appreciate that that stint turned into, well it went. I stayed there for a year, about a year and a half, and I started kind of like, I want to do something different. And so I got into multicultural programming and did that for a little bit. So I went to another institution in Texas, and Stephen F Austin stayed there for several years, and was like, Oh my gosh. I just I love it. I love the work. I was working with lots of different programs and events and activities. We did some really fabulous work when they’re like, you know, spring, like a study, sorry, Alternative Break series, things like that, just that were so impactful and just just meant so much to the students. I would take students to New Orleans after Katrina, and we would do the work, and we would, you know, go to museums, and it was just amazing. It was just an amazing experience. And so anyway, so I thought I was never coming back to West Texas. Lo and behold, the man that I ended up marrying. We had met before I left, and we started dating. I ended up back in West Texas. He kind of scooped me up, and here we go. And so went back to West Texas, worked for, I mean, I stayed there a combined, probably 18 years, or overall, about an 18 year period. And through that time, West Texas is so far away from the rest of Texas that sometimes you feel very detached. And I think for a minute there, I was very thankful for, you know, I love my husband. I was very thankful for the decisions that I made and, you know, the blessings that I had. And, you know, but it also at that time, there was a moment of, I knew I wasn’t going to be able to have all these opportunities to move around. You know, in our field, when you’re very young, they tell you, in order to move around, you got to go to different institutions. You can’t just stay at one place. Well, I made the commitment that I was going to marry this man, and I was going to have a family, and I was going to you. Do all the things, and we had other commitments, and so I knew that that was not, at that point, something that was a huge opportunity for me, but even within that, I still got so many great opportunities, and I was still able to do wonderful work with students across the board. And so that was amazing for me. But then that, you know, that kind of, in a sense, you know, I knew my ceiling was there. I couldn’t really go up, you know, I kind of always just a little bit, you know, wanted to have some of that experience of moving up and stepping into different shoes. So some of the things that happened in my family, you know, we had some deaths in the family, and some other things that happened that took us in a different direction. And so then I found an opportunity that we did have some room to be able to move and go different places and things like that. And so I find myself, you know, my parents live in East Texas, and I was, you know, trying to get back to East Texas. And I was like, and so I started looking, and I found this wonderful institution that I really didn’t know anything about. But lo and behold, when I started doing research, I was like, Oh, my God, this place is amazing. And of course, when I got here, I was like, Are you kidding me, this is a little paradise in the middle of nowhere. There were literally deer, like deer groups running across the, you know, the street. And, you know, just, it was just beautiful. I mean, literally in the song, it’s in the pines of Northeast Texas, you know, where Red River, you know? I mean, it’s just so beautiful, like, just majestic. I mean, like the forest come to life, you know, I, I thought I’d see a fairy in the tree or something. I don’t know. It was just, it was amazing. So, and then the people were so nice, and so I got here as an assistant, Associate Vice President, assistant vice president, and then very quickly, I became a vice president. Now, having said that there were a lot of things that happened along the way that I thought I was going to be an executive director probably the rest of my life, and that’s where it was going to end. But I kind of came to this place where about a year and a half ago, when some of the things that my family started happening, I started that, I started to realize that there were some things that were happening for me that I wasn’t prepared for. I kind of, you know, I had put a poured a lot into students over the years, and in a weird way, I started to see these students that I had had over the years, just like shooting above me, you know, like surpassing me, and I was grateful for that, like, not like I was so excited for them. But then I also started to see as I was having opportunities come my way, and sometimes when I wasn’t necessarily having opportunities my way,

Urisonya Flunder
some of these students that I had poured into started literally creating paths for me that I was Not expecting. And it became a situation where the mentee became the mentor. And some of the seeds that I had planted over the years, some knowingly and intentionally and some unintentionally, created the situation where I was enjoying their shade and like I did not anticipate that, like I didn’t. I didn’t always believe the mentorship, like my even my dissertation is about mentorship and the power of that. But here I was having this experience where the mentorship that I thought I was supposed to be doing and did was now having and just an impact that I never thought, even thought about, and it was just it was coming back to me in a way that I never thought possible. So anyway, so that’s in the short these are some things that I’m kind of going through at this point in my life, in looking at,

Neil E. Golemo
well, I mean, I think that’s, I don’t know, I think it’s very student affairs. Absolutely, I hear the parts we’re talking about, how we have to move like, I know when I started here, like Saturday was 19 years for me at Galveston, and I remember when I started, I thought I’d just be there three, four years, maybe just. Long enough to earn the statue they’re going to put up on me someday, right? And, you know, I never thought, I didn’t think about all the other things that were going to happen, all the other life stuff, and the quality of life, things that were going to matter. And I think I kind of underestimated how loyal a human being I am, and so I’ll tell you, sounds pretty amazing that you know you’re kind of getting what you deserve,

Urisonya Flunder
and I don’t even know if it’s a thing of what you deserve. I feel like I’ve been blessed so much, like more than I don’t know that it’s, it’s about that, but it’s just like, I was surprised because, like, and I tell the story there, there was one student that I had that had been doing things for me, and I really willing to be honest, I Had I forgotten they were my student. I knew I knew them somehow, and had completely because my memory is not always the greatest. Y’all, okay, but I had really forgotten that they were a former student. I knew, I knew them, but it had been so long ago, and I’m sitting in a conference one day, and I’m listening to this panel, and this, this, this person is on the panel, and all of a sudden they started talking about, yeah, you know when first folks like my mentor, you know, Dr flunder, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, Who are you talking to? Are you talking about me? Who me? And then stuff started to come back. And I was like, I remembered some of the scenarios that I had gone through with the student. And I just thought I was, like, those little nuggets that I gave them might have been small things to me, but to them, they were huge, and that had a huge impact on them, to the point where, literally, they would, you know, continue to remember that and that shaped them as an individual, and then continue to get back to me from that? And so, yeah, it’s, it’s, I don’t know if it like, I think it’s a blessing. I don’t know that it’s, it’s all me or anything. I just think it’s just been a blessing to, you know, go through and know folks that you know when it’s real. And I think if people are sincere, you know they they recognize that you know and

Neil E. Golemo
absolutely

J.T. Snipes
Well, I appreciate your story. First off, the the vulnerability, I think, as a culture, oftentimes we’re taught that it’s an individual journey to success, right? And it’s because I do these things, and especially with our students, I think there’s a tendency for the relationship to be one way, right? It’s always me giving in to students and never receiving. And I think the beautiful thing that I’m taking from your story is that, yeah, at a certain point, if you’ve if you’ve entered a relationship, a mentoring relationship, there can be moments where the student becomes the teacher, and the teacher becomes the student, which I think is beautiful. I do have a question, though, What? What? What made you want to tell this story, or what made you feel comfortable telling this story?

Urisonya Flunder
I honestly, you know, as we kind of were, you know, prepping for the podcast, and I, and I was thinking about things, and, you know, one of the things I’m thinking, what, what’s hit me the most? This is something that really has hit me the most over the last few years, especially because when you, when you you’re, you know, when you’re really honest with yourself, and you’re in a vulnerable place, and you’re realizing that, you know, I’m I need help, but I don’t know where to get it from, you know? And there were times that I have had that, and I’ve been so used to mentoring and pouring into other people, and it was just like, just at the right times, just so perfectly I told you I wasn’t going to get emotional and y’all messing me up here, people have come back To me. Connections have been reconnected, and there was a, there was a quote Dr Jeanette across Brazil used to always say, and I always use that quote we talked about, like, when I would do an interview, or when I would talk about, what’s my philosophy of, you know, working with students and all this. And I would always say, you know, I believe learning is reciprocal, because that was one thing I learned from Dr Jeanette. Cross Brazil. Who was, I believe she was one of the first African American I think she was the first African American Vice President of Student Affairs at University of Arkansas, at the main campus, flagship, and, and, and actually probably one of the first female African American vice presidents across the board in Student Affairs at that time, but she used to always say learning is reciprocal, and we should always be learning from our students and then teaching them as well. And I always said that, you know, always learning is reciprocal, and I believe in this, and I’m learning from my students and they’re teaching me as well. But that was one sided the way I thought about it. And now in my life and in my career, in my experience, that quote has a whole different meaning, a whole different meaning. And I can tell you for a fact, coming from being an executive director for many years, I was an associate dean and then an executive director for many years on the community college level, and then moving into an Associate VP and a system, a university system, and then A VP, there were a lot of things that I felt very much like imposter syndrome. I felt very much like, what am I doing, even going through my dissertation process. And the crazy thing was, my dissertation was all about mentorship, like I studied African American HBCU college presidents. And one thing they talked about the most, and one thing that if you ever go back and read, was mentorship in the mentorship, mentorship, mentorship, like that was huge within my findings. And so as I’m, you know, looking at this now, that learning being reciprocal, you know, it has a whole different meaning, like I’m literally, it’s flipped, you know, everything that I thought and in a wonderful way, I mean, because I’ve got some people out there that are in places I never thought I would see, literally never thought I would see. And there are times when they let me get a glimpse of it, or they take me along that journey, and it has just it’s blown my mind. I’m not even going to lie like it has blown my mind.

Neil E. Golemo
I’ll say I’ve never felt closer to my students than when I was going back through my program again, or it was so good for me as a practitioner. But, you know, like it had been 12 years since I finished my program as a masters and and gone back in and like so much had changed. It is so many emails and you know, I’ll tell you, like, If I hear one more person tell me that, Oh, it’s on Howdy, everything’s on Howdy, nothing’s on howdy. And, you know, and I have a PhD in college, and I was struggling to get through it. And so, yeah, that resonates really hard with me, absolutely.

Urisonya Flunder
And to go back to what you know, JT was talking about, like, why this topic? I mean, I think it’s important for people to know, don’t be afraid to, like, use unexpected connections and relationships, and don’t feel like, well, it’s inappropriate for me to learn from someone who’s either younger or, you know, who’s doing something different. Because I think we are taught that we’re the wise owl in the room, you know, and we you know, as the the you know, the sage you know, person in the room. We can never listen to the younger people or the ones who are that we’ve, you know, you know, you know, helped to you know, build this bridge for you know, but now they know you know. And we know this is so true, because in whether it’s technology, it’s you know, so many things, the wisdom needs to be there. But also we need that you know, that young energy. We need that enthusiasm. And sometimes, on my hardest day, sometimes I need that encouragement from those you know, because we, you know, sometimes we have been building the bridge, fighting the fight, we get tired, and we need those people with the energy, the enthusiasm and the, you know, the new breath of air to just give us that, you know, give loan me a little bit of that for a moment, you know. So, yeah, I mean, it’s, and sometimes it’s, it’s hard to let go and do that, but and be vulnerable in that way. But I’m learning, like, just do it, you know,

J.T. Snipes
put. The other thing that I loved from your story is there are people in the midpoint of their careers, right? If you, if you had a vision, you you struck me initially, when we first met, I was like, Oh, she’s a go getter, right? Talk to me about the decision that that you made to not pursue the the fast track to leadership, and what were some of the things that you gained in this path, and what it may be some of the things that you lost. Because I think for our audience, it’s it’s good to know, for for young professionals to know what can be gained by not going straight to the top, and what are some things that maybe you lost? Yeah,

Urisonya Flunder
I, in a lot of ways, I’m very traditional in my relationship, you know. And I think I’ve learned that, you know, we used to hear this, oh, women can have it all. Women can have it all. And in general, people can have it all. And I’ve learned that’s not really that true, like, we can’t have it all. And, you know, I think somebody once said, you can have it all, but you can’t have it all at one time, you know? And I think it was maybe Shonda Rhimes that talked about, like realizing that, like, when her family, when she was raising her family, and doing well with that, then her bit her, you know, her company was suffering a little bit. Or her, like, ratings went down a little bit, you know, and vice versa. And I think for me, I just started to realize, like, what do I want out of life? I love having a wonderful career, but I also want to have a life, you know. And I don’t want my career to be my entire life, you know, and so, and sometimes it’s easy, especially in student affairs, especially starting out, you know, we work those grueling hours. We don’t have work life balance, you know, like we’re just, you got to just get it done, power through, you know, make it happen. And, and I realized I wanted to have a life. My husband is a preacher. Um, you know, we, we are very, you know, like, involved in, you know, in, in the works that we, you know, we’ve been very involved over the years. And I’ve been so blessed to be a part of that. And and, you know, I have very strong beliefs, and I want to be that person, and I want to be take time with, you know, with that part of my, my, you know, who I am, and making sure that I’m nurturing that. And so my whole life can’t be, you know, just work, you know, I don’t have children. And I wanted children. I thought I was gonna have children. I thought was gonna have this huge, you know, truckload of kids. That didn’t happen, you know. And so I do pour a lot into my students because of that, I think even more, because I do feel like part of my legacy is a little bit the students that I work with and and the people that I come in contact with. But having said that, I also wanted to have something that, if and when, hopefully, I live long enough to retire one day, that I can have a life outside of just, you know, work and that I built up that life over time and so, so that’s that’s always been important for me, is, you know, making sure that I’m spending time with with, you know, my spiritual aspects that I need to spend Time with that I’m doing those things and that I’m spending time with my husband and and also spending time with my, my my, my family. So anyway, so yeah, that’s, I

Neil E. Golemo
mean, what good is like benefiting, you know, like nobody wants to sit in the shade by themselves, right? And so that makes perfect sense. And I think it’s wonderful that you are just doing such a great job of highlighting how like that is the journey. It’s, it’s not a you need to get you didn’t get derailed. You know, you found a different path. And, man, I every time I talk to you, I feel like I’m getting a hug. So I’m just so

J.T. Snipes
the first lady now,

Urisonya Flunder
so, oh no, I’m not first lady, but, but it’s, but you’re right. Those derailments that we think are derailments that’s, that’s, that’s just not the plan, and it’s okay.

Neil E. Golemo
Sonia, thank you so much. You’re so blessed to have this time together. And I’m also going to go ahead and have to thank our guests, or excuse me, our host. Evolve. Higher education leaders are facing unprecedented challenges, uncertainty and feeling under attack. Many are understandably feeling overwhelmed and near burnout, yet yearning to make powerful difference for students, their organizations and all of us evolve, led by our own Dr Keith Edwards, along with doctors Brian Rio and Don Lee is an executive coaching program to empower leaders like you to release fear, gain courage and take transformation. Is transformative action to unleash your leadership for social change evolves a three month executive coaching program offering individual and group coaching as well as an intentional and curated curriculum to maximize impact for the busiest senior leaders, visit us to learn how you can be a part of our next core cohort, or consider evolve for your senior leadership team. I can tell you that if, if Dr Edwards is involved, it’s going to be worth your time. Y’all this has been here’s the story, part of the Student Affairs now, family, we are so glad that you joined us to laugh. We did cry, learn, sometimes commiserate, but always celebrate being a part of the Student Affairs experience. If you have a story, and we all have a story, please consider sharing with us by leaving a two minute pitch by a voice file at Student Affairs now.com/here, the story. Every story is welcome and every earnest perspective is worthy. And even if you don’t feel like sharing yours, you can still find ours and others at Student Affairs now.com, on YouTube, please smash that subscribe button and anywhere you listen to podcasts, this episode has been edited by Nat ambrosey. Thank you, Nat for making us feel and look and sound better than we have any business sounding. We hope this has fled everybody. We hope this has fed your flame a little bit, because your light matters. Keep using it to make the world a brighter place. Until next time this has been here’s the story. I am the luckiest person you know, Neil E. Golemo.

J.T. Snipes
and I’m also pretty lucky. JT snipes.

Neil E. Golemo
Dr plunder, all right. Appreciate it. Thank you, everybody. Peace, awesome. You.

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